308 'Challenge Stradale/Scuderia'

Hi, have been lurking here for a bit and now have a really long post!

I have officially given up on modern sports cars after a test drive of the new 458 which, once you got past the 'oooh it is a new 458 and isn't it fast' moment, was like my old 997 Turbo but more so - no fun unless you drive it like you stole it at which time you are doing 200 and kissing your license good bye. 740 hp in the new 599 replacement is just plain silly - I had a go in the old 599 and the last thing it needed was to be faster - more fun yes but faster no!

I have been wanting to get into an older Ferrari, one that has that visceral feel, makes lots of noise, but in absolute terms is not a license loser - so one that is fun at up to and just above road legal speeds.

Although my budget does not run to vintage V12 (would love a 250 TR, 250 SWB) or a 288 GTO, I do have a reasonable amount to allocate - say up to USD 150,000 or a bit more for the right car.

I must admit that I do love the lines, interior and whole idea of a 308 and think that once you get past the fact that this is a mass produced car (for a Ferrari), it really is lovely and seems to tick all the boxes. It also would response well to some subtle performance enhancements and weight loss.

I had considered a Dino but think it will be a little lacking in outright pace and is probably more money that I want to spend once it is done right and may not suit being modified. I would also be interested in knowing what other people who have some pretty hot cars as well as a 308 think - is it an under rated car due to its large production numbers? I note that Napolis has a 208 in what is pretty much the greatest garage in the world so they must stack up in some way!

That brings me to the dilema! I am thinking of a couple of options and would love some feedback and direction from those on the board. Each has some positives and negatives. I think the key thing is to not want to lose an absolute bundle when/if I chose to sell so don't want to go totally overboard. I do not want to keep the car standard and would like to fix up a few of the known weak points and since originality is not particularly important to me (I want to enjoy the drive above all else) I am happy to performance tune within reason.

I want a normally aspirated car and keep a standard car appearance (except in the case of sending it to Makela but that would also be 'standard' in appearance in its own way). I have really liked the current Challenge Stradale/Scuderia concept and did toy with the idea of a CS but thought it was just too fast and did have a 430 Scuderia on order (before the GFC!).

I am looking for a car to drive on the street and maybe the very odd track day but it needs to be a functioning car that I can drive around town, park etc and not be a track machine.

I want a GTB Euro with no spolier due to the purity of line but then it gets complicated.

option 1
Get a clean glass 308 - do a 'basic' restoration of body and interior (re-paint and re-trim, sort out rust, powder coat relevant bits, fix electrics etc)- put performance brakes, suspension and exhaust then work the engine including electric ingition. Put 16 inch QV wheels or similar on, do the usual clutch job to reduce the pressure a bit and fit an electric power steering system that cuts out above 10 mph). Secondary decision here is who to get the work done by - I spoke to both Carobu and Nicks Forza - I liked the engineering on Nicks solution for a 3.5 litre car. Alternative would be to leave capacity stock and just put some money into it.

Likely cost of this option is around $120,000 plus the car itself at around $40,000. I did like the performance of Nick's car and the just plain angry sound - I think this would be a very fun and fast (but not too fast) car. Issue is am I going to have a car that is only worth $40,000 at the end of the day. Should be able to take 100 pounds out of the car fairly easily I hope.

option 2
Get a QV car and send over to Makela Auto Tuning and let them go to work on it. They do request a glass dry sump car as that is able to be homologated but this adds a lot more to the cost price and I figure that they are going to throw most of it away anyway and I may as well get a cheaper base car.....

The car would have similar modifications to the car above but with the crazy wide wheel arches, a 3 litre tuned engine (they reckon it can make 300 hp on carbs with street drivability due to modern cams) and have an interior re-trimmed in alcantara with racing seats and maybe a very simple cage or chassis bracing. Would re-work all the suspension, brakes etc and they would put on a glass fibre body.

They recently did a car for Euro 340,000 for a French client that they got down to under 100kg but it had a lot of fancy composite panels and is truely a work of art - I am not thinking to go that far.

The idea here is a street version of the Group 4 rally car conversion and hope that the pedigree of Makela is going to make it worth something at the end of it.


In any case, I am interested in comments and to hear other people's views if they have any experience. In short I want a really fun car and am prepared to throw quite a lot of money at a 308 GTB to get what I want. I would like to not be flaming all the money I do spend on resale but this is mostly a car for me to drive and enjoy.

I am thinking at this stage that a gloss black Makela tuned car with the gold stratos wheels, no mud flaps and a black alcantara interior with red stitching (as per 430 Scuderia) or perhaps with Cuoio could be just the thing.

Cheers!

 

All I'm going to say is "Wow!" I like where your mind is at.

 

Idea for "budget supercar":
308GT4 har longer wheelbase and may accomodate the 360 engine longitudinal in the car.
The 360 engine/parts are available and reasonable priced.

With a 360 Stradale engine in a 308GT4 - you are not so far away from F40 performance, just without turbos, the looks and price-tag.

H

 

After reading your post over... I think that you are looking for a 355.

 

If you want to rework a steel car, I'll offer my #20405.

 

I couldn't agree more. Modern street cars have no soul.

They are too heavy and soft for the race track and too fast and over the top for the street.

Manufactures are just selling horsepower figures and 0-60 times. They have lost the art of building wonderful sport cars. Ferrari included.

 

Look at the project that this shop did to the 308: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338026&highlight=308+355+engine

 

I know precisely where you're coming from as that's exactly how I built my car. There's something very special about the early carbureted 308s, and when they have a bit more power they are even more brilliant.

I think going to a full Makela resto job car is a bit overkill, this is just my opinion. You would have to specifically request they take it easy when setting up the engine spec so you could drive it on the street. 300bhp even with modern cams is not quite possible, but the big issue is torque, you're never going to have much from 3L. I specifically wanted the power of a race engine, but with more torque and driveability, so I put a 360 crank into my 308 block, better cams, compression bump, and it's brilliant- has around 310bhp+ with 260lbs torque, 3.4L total. Also, a glass car is around about 60-80lbs lighter and that just doesn't make a whole lot of a difference, so if you bump into a nice early steel GTB I would jump on it.



Once you're done with the engine alone, the car is no longer a $40k car. Early 308s with a stock look and more power are like early 911RS recreations in that they are very desireable lately. You won't be able to get out of it what you put into it, but with a 3.4 or 3.5L engine with tons of power is going to command a premium so saying it's a $50k+ car at that point is not a stretch, not at all.

 

This is my 'Challenge/Scuderia'

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECNMTdu72_k[/ame]
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You just say:

"This motor runs real strong"....and don't mention the 360 crankshaft....


I'd hit that radiator with some satin black, and you need one of my "rough repro" battery covers???
I had them make, like six, so by the end they were pretty good with it...

 

I am voting for Carobu's 358RR engine. but I think that the group 4 rally look ruins the lines of the 308. Upgrade the usual bits and toss a few parts to save weight and you'll be very happy.

http://www.carobu.com/Project%20Cars/308_qv.html


OR go buy a 20kUSD 308, build a 308 GTO and trubocharge the motor. Sacrilege to some but I love the looks.
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If it's a QV engine and you want electronic injection then Carobu is very a good option. They made a nice electronic injected qv motor with 3.5L 347bhp engine. Carbs are just more fun yet at time a blunt instrument at times

 

I LOVE your thoughts on this.

I'm going in a slightly different direction, based on the same idea that the modern Ferrari's are no fun to drive on the streets unless you're acting like a complete moron.

In my book, to have fun you need a canyon road and something like this:

Stiff 4130 steel space frame, Carbonfiber bodyshell - loosely based on the 860 Monza, but with some Maserati and some other similar racers thrown in the blender, straight-6 BMW M3 engine and drivetrain. Limited slip diff. Independent suspension all around. 18" wire wheels with Michelin Pilot Cup tires, big brakes, 1700 lbs, 350 hp. No doors. No roof. No windscreen to speak of. no ABS, ESP, Matinetto. Just driving skills to save your bacon and bucket loads of satisfaction on the twisties.

The CAD work on the frame is 99% done. Ready to send off to the laser cutters and then my (TIG) welder. CAD work on the body is 90% done. Then will send off to company that will mill a mould out of a huge block of foam.

Engine and drivetrain are ready to mount, the 18 inch Dayton wire wheels are in my living room. Brake stuff is on order.

Since I am doing this the new school way - all in CAD -, it shouldn't be too hard to produce a batch of these. Which is exactly what I am planning on doing...

What do you think?

(and then quickly back to your own project, sorry for the hijack)

(In red: photoshop idea. In black: rendering from the actual CAD model. In B/W: the inspiration, plus a iPhone snapshot of a Solidworks CAD drawing)
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Sexy. I didi the same thing a few years back but never followed through with cutting the check. I want one!

 

This sums up what I thinking perfectly!

I am most certainly not looking for a 355, a 360 or a 308 with a 355 motor or otherwise. I want a nice hot 308!

 

This thing is cool but I it would encroach in on my longer term plan which is to get GTO Engineering in the UK and RS Panels who between them have restored original cars to build me a perfect 250 Testa Rossa replica. It would be a 'tool makers copy' (with FIA papers) and cost over $500,000. A longer term plan - they can even do it on a 400i title so as not to cut up an original car since they basically make the whole thing from scratch so that is why I want a 308 in the meantime.

Yours does look like a fun project tho!

 

How much machining does it take to put the 360 crank in the 308?

 

@K1 - I love the idea you are proposing here. I have actually had thoughts about what would someone do to really build the ulitimate 308. I love all of the options that have been mentioned here. I have driven FerrariPilots 308 in its previous guise - it was quite a beast despite what the dyno may have shown before he got it tuned in, probably simply due to the power/weight ratio.


I have some random thoughts but dont have time to expound on them here at the moment. More to follow later.



PDG

 

I've driven every regular production 8 cylinder Ferrari ever made and been driven in the Stradale, and Scud and 458. I am an old school guy through and through. However, IMHO, the car you want is a 355. It is the cut off point. Save the power steering it is a 308 on steroids and has an engine sound to die for. Along with the 308GT4, it is just the most fun you can have in an 8 cylinder Ferrari.

Before you get tangled up in a fantastic, but expensive engineering and design process, you owe it yourself to give her a whirl. Seriously, Unfrickenbelievable.

 

Your option 1 is what i have been doing with my 328 GTB. I've already dropped about 200 lbs off of it - Ohlins suspension, Challenge wheels, lightweight seats, lightweight stainless exhaust, etc. Here are some pics, including the new interior (before I attached the belts to the integrated harness bar). Some intake and exhaust improvements but the significant power stuff is coming. Stay tuned.

I have 4 point European belts but if someone wants two nearly new pairs of Schroth 6 point belts (red), make me a reasonable offer.

I got the idea for the interior by looking at a 599 with the European sport package with the bar. I thought we could do a similar but subtly improved version on a 328 GTB.
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Evil looking. One of my fav photos.

 

I absolutely LOVE that car and if I was going to build a hot rod Ferrari that is definitely it. Only change I would make would be to lengthen the control arms and get the true GTO wheelbase. Even love the wheels. Imagine that with a stripped down interior and about 400rwhp.

 

I love the lines of the 308 to much to do a 288 gto lookalike project. But, i did all the rest.
added a turbo, big brakes, 17" three pcs compomotives, adjustable suspension and replaced all bodyparts for removable GRP ones.
With modest turbopressure i squeeze out allmost 300BHp and this combined with the 250KG weightloss it turnes the normal 308 into the car we would like it to be.

 

WOW. Awesome! I like your style.... (Although for that kind of money, I think I'd go for a non-carbon-copy project like mine AND an F40. Saves you the constant explaining that it is a replica).

As for 308's: I've been in St@vens 308 before he did the glass fiber stuff. That thing hauls....

 

when it comes to upgrading the 308 engine, you can also contact the guys from Munich, Germany http://www.formulagt.de/tuningteile.php?typ=30