I used 1 1/8 snap rings. NAPA has them listed as #1344, although I got mine from another auto parts store. When you install them, make sure they are fully seated in the groove. Mine did not automatically snap in (look for a large space between the ends, it looks like they should be closer together-which they should). I had to put a socket on them to force them down a bit, then they snapped in and the ends were noticeably closer. Once you get all 4 done compare the fit of each and it will be obvious. I used the bands in your picture that go through the sleeve then fold over and are held in place by the two tabs that fold over to lock them in place. I also oriented the bands to take into account axle rotation. I don't this will be a major factor, but every little bit helps. I used the tool in post #17. One part holds the band while the other part with the hex shaft fits a socket wrench or torque wrench. This allows you to really put pressure on the band and get it tight, then flip the tool up to crease and bend the band and lock it in place. Once it is bent over, you can release the holder and then fold over the tabs to lock it in place.
Thanks to all, I am sorry I hijacked the thread a bait but hopefully my extreme curiosity mixed with my complete insecurity will hopefully answer some others questions too. I tried every available supplier and no correct snap rings were available DM had 1. I called my local Porsche mechanic and he said come over. He only had the ones with the ears and I asked him if he could order the old style and he was really curious why. They measure the same thickness and the newer style have a bit more to them, both are made by lobro and the ones on the left are the newer style and easier to remove etc., so unless someone can convince me how wrong they are I will probably use them. Here is the NAPA 3191 tool also. The bolt came off easily with a air gun and I also pulled the flange off easily. VIP thanks for the suggestion I have a PVC piece that fits perfectly and will go get some bolts and washers, however on my left side (drivers) after taking pics and measuring the seal for ever, as it was sticking out and I was trying to figure out how far the replacement should go in. I tried my seal puller but it would not fit and so i used my finger and the seal came out almost too easy! After all that angst about how far to push the seal in it tuns out it had a shelf just as Steve said it would! Anyhow some more pics. Hope the right side is as easy. A couple of more questions: Should I use a bit of oil on the outside of the seal before I push it in? That plate holding the seal in on my car was painted, has anyone taken it off. i really dont want to mess with it but it looks lame? I searched this thread again but can't find the best way toehold down the flange when I torque down the bolt? Is that spline shaft coming out of the engine hollow through to the oil I stuck a 6" toothpick in there? It does not have any lube holes like the camshafts does it? Jmalenza, I am curious which way did you put on the bands and can you explain how the orientation would affect it? Thanks again to all!!! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'd use a sealant -- e.g. Dow Corning 730, etc. (not a lubricant) Yes (see Fig 11 or 12 on page D19 in the 308GT4 WSM), that's why it's important to use a sealant everywhere under the washer (as you did) to prevent gear oil from coming out the splines and leaking out past the OD of the washer or leaking out past the ID of the washer. I'd also put a little blue Loctite 242 (medium strength) on the bolt threads.
The washer that goes between the axle and the CV joint (opposite side from the circlip) is dished and is a spring. It keeps constant pressure on the circlip and makes sure there is not play here. So make sure that washer is on there and that it is oriented to act as a spring. I put the circlip on and then put a socket on the circlip and gave a gentle tap with a hammer. It compresses the spring slightly and the circlip pops right in.
The only thing that you need to be concerned with is "Will the head of the clamp clear the axle bolt?" Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
As the axle shaft is hollow...and oil can leak "up the threads" or through the splines, care must be taken to remove the old sealant. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
+ 1 on Brian, Peter and Fastradio I orientated the bands so they all go the same way and, as Fastradio said, so they clear the axle bolts. I always try to get things lined up and going the same way. Its frustrating when you see other people's work and the some of the clamp bands are facing toward the front and others are facing towards the back as well as being off center. Thanks to all for the great info and pictures, Fastradio, on the differential seals and flange info. this will be one of my next projects.
David, Thanks for posting the pics. I was going to use the 1211 3 bond but then saw your gear oil sealant, just ordered 2 tubes!. I am thinking that if you are using this it would be the best. this is from their site. Why do I get the feeling it ill the same stuff with different food coloring in it HAAA!!! Permatex Gear Oil RTV Sealant is a silicone specially formulated to withstand the harsh gear oil environment found in differentials and transfer cases. Friction modifiers typically found in gear oil can break down other silicone formulas. Proven to meet the demanding standards of OE manufacturers, this sealant can be used for the differential case or as a gasket for the drain plug. It can withstand weathering, retain leakproof sealing and will not void manufacturer warranty requirements. Gear Oil RTV is sensor safe, non-toxic, nonflammable and low odor, therefore not presenting any hazard to users. Specifically designed for use on transfer cases and differentials, it offers the users an added assurance that they have the right product for the job. This product typically illustrates the understanding of market needs by Permatex and its ability to provide value added solutions as an automotive gasket leader. I know you do this all the time my left side seal just pulled out and I just pushed it back in by hand hoping the new ones are harder to press in. Can you give us any suggestions on the right side? Is there a ledge there also or is the placement variable? Thanks for the idea on how to hold the flange while torquing! Do you use sealant like Steve suggested? The reason I sues is once again varied responses. The Porsche mechanic which sold me the snap rings said he alway uses a bit of oil. I have been told not use anything and Steve suggested the Dow sealant? My mind says use nothing but do not want any galling of the rubber. I only want to do this once! HA Thanks to all again! Rob
I think you are generally right here -- the Dow Corning 730 specs/description is virtually the same as the Permatex Gear Oil RTV Sealant (an RTV resistant to fuel/oil). I feel this is an advantage of using a sealant on the seal OD -- uncured, it acts as a lubricant during installation, but, after curing, is not a lubricant -- JMO.
You're welcome. The Permatex Gear Oil RTV looks and smells remarkably similar to their Ultra Grey sealant. I really don't know with certainty if its really that different, but it does seal well. I do a fair amount of repairs where the CV joint boot is full of gear oil, due to spline seepage. The factory tool uses a similar principal to lock the flange whilst torquing the bolt. (One of the few tools I don't have...) Personally, I use a bit of sealant on the seals in discussion...as a lube agent. This is really a personal decision. In some other areas, I prefer to use grease... Typically, I find that the right side seal presses in harder than the left side...I buy these seals from the F-pimp, as the Corteco seals were OEM, Viton and of very high quality. They do not fit loose, however. On the right side, the seal is driven in flush with the housing, although this is not critical. (No ledge) See photo. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Forgive me for being an obstinate SOB David, and I know that your method has obviously worked OK for you many times, but do you have any reference for using the "flush" location on the RH side lip seal mounting? The assembly instructions on page D21 in the 308GT4 WSM do not indicate this, and I've never seen a lip seal manufacturer recommend a "floating" installation where the lip seal is only held by its OD. Furthermore, I'd argue that your photo clearly shows a ledge/shoulder on the RH side (it's not part of the bore, but the piece behind it with an ID smaller than the housing bore), and the Fig 12 on page D19 shows the the RH lip seal inserted beyond flush until it contacts this shoulder. Additionally, if the RH lip seal is left flush with the housing, the clearance between the flanged hub and the lip seal is not so great: Image Unavailable, Please Login Anyway to summarize, why do you think it would be a problem to fully seat the RH lip seal against the inner shoulder as per Fig 12?
+1 to what Steve wrote ...ask me how I know...Very recently I did the diff seals and pressed in the right side (passenger side) just flush..and a week later was chasing a hard to find leak. It turned out that the flange had indeed worn thru the seal, which as it turned out was hard to see from any direction. Second time thru I pressed it all the way in (there was a ledge on mine) and no more leaks. I just wish this topic had come up before...it would have saved me some bucks on the 2nd seal...
All, Isn't that the bearing in there on the right side not a shelf and should the seal be up against the bearing? Once again I want to do this correctly. I also want for all of of you who have done this to look at my left side seal and see ho much it protrudes. It is clearly seated on its ledge but still looks strange. Did your left side seals look like this too? I know there were two different GB's in the GT4???
Depends how you define "bearing". It is a separate (stationary) piece that holds the bearing outer race. No (and the F drawing shows that the LH lip seal should nominally be flush with the outside of the casting) -- my notes have those lip seals as being 45mm ID x 62mm OD x 10mm thick, but it wouldn't suprise me if 45 X 62 x 12 was also a standard industry size. Are the lip seals that you are using 10 mm or 12 mm thick?
Dear Friends, I have found out at least part of my riddle. I have an early GT4 and my differential cover plate holding the seal in is the early kind which is superseded by the newer version. (once again if anyone wants a very high quality 76 GT4 parts book I scanned one page at a time and made searchable e-mail me) Anyway the shelf on my left side is 9.75mm deep (see pic) The three seals measurements are: Gacto MIM removed measured 10.18mm x 61.96mm Ted R A+P A 45 62 10 F measures 9.96mm x 62.24mm FUK F13 SC 45 62 10 is measures 9.80mm x 62.25mm I think use this one (tighter & Thinner) That is why the seal is sticking out. Next are some pics from the 76 Parts book showing the two different covers . Next pic is from a friends later GT4 with the newer cover note raised housing where bolts are as in Parts book. The next pic is from the RIGHT side showing how close the flange rides in the seal, I will take some pics of it off tomorrow, it came off by hand (the flange!) Last picture is before and after flanges. I am still confused about what to use to put them in Dave you said you use sealant here, do you use the same RTV you use for the splines. It has been hammered in me for years not to use any sealant on the cam seals this is why I am agonizing over this small issue. All this aside the seals were not leaking and the left one even though looking precariously hanging out did not rub and never fell out at least for the last 18 years..... Sorry that area is so dirty will spend a few days cleaning there...... Thanks again to all, You guys mean the world to me, This car also means allot to me and I know... I have warped priorities, somehow with everything going on in my life now doing this right is important on several levels not to mention my respect for the automobile! Rob Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
You are correct. The right side seal is recessed, as shown in my photo. My previous statement "On the right side, the seal is driven in flush with the housing, although this is not critical. (No ledge) See photo." is incorrect, although it does apply (if I recall correctly) to the LHS. I do many RHS seals, as the RHS inner CV boot is typically blown off due to proximity to the exhaust manifold. On the LHS, as least on the QV and BB cars, I cannot recall an "inner lip" to prevent the seal from being pressed in too far. I do have a 328 in now for a axle seal, so we shall see soon. On the seal to flange issue, it is not something new...and I was remiss in not mentioning it. I guess that things that I take for granted are not always well know. Part of this issue (clearance to the flange) may explain why some cars have an 8mm wide seal, where other have a 10mm. I agree that have an unsupported seal is not a good idea, but I'm almost certain that the seal carrier, on the thrust side of the diff on a QV, does not have a ledge for the seal to rest against. I could be wrong... There would not be a problem. I just got confused with right versus left side.
Rob, No need to over-think this problem, as (obviously) Ferrari didn't. Although I have done what you're doing on a semi-regular basis, I am not replacing the seal due to leakage. I'm "in there" due to a blown CV boot and/or a CV joint full of gear oil. In that the axle is out (the hardest part), I'll pull the flange and seal, reseal and replace....as the majority of the labor has been "spent." We're simply doing a through job, as these cars (and parts) are old. Rarely do I see the flange seal leaking... Installation is a personal preference. Some like it with oil, grease or RTV. Less is more and do what you're comfortable with. In this particular case, I use a skim coating of RTV on the edge of the seal just to facilitate easy insertion. I use the same "gear oil" approved sealant...
I believe you as that's what the differential drawings in the 308QV/328 WSM show -- LH side is just a thru bore (no shoulder and no separate piece to act as a shoulder) and a built-in shoulder in the housing on the RH side: Image Unavailable, Please Login Sort of a crazy design risk IMO (based on the seal being so narrow for such a large OD), but the lip seal manufacturer can only make recommendations -- they can't force their customers to follow them
I agree 100%. Oddly, the seals typically don't leak, even after many years of use. I still struggle with the differential design, particularly the oil "sneaking" past the splines and filling up the CV boot. I've got a 328 in the shop now...and there's a CV grease/gear oil mess everywhere to clean up. But the floating seal appears dry. Go figure!
Dear Friends, I am also doing this because of gear oil leaking into my cv joint and leaking and throwing up grease on my engine. I can't speak for later cars but mine has a shelf on the right side (see pics). I dont think it is part of the casting as it does not have a seam like the differential case does but my seal was definitely pushed into it. I have never taken this apart and even if I did could probably not figure it out but my instinct says somehow the oil comes through the splines easier than the seals as both of my seals were not leaking. I needed to service the CV joints anyway. Dave how do you seal up the bolt just let the excess that came through the splines or do you add more on the back of the washer or bolt itself? Thanks again for all the help. One more question. The pic I posted above with my number on my GB pan cover. Is that my number as the book says stops at 693 mine says 607 plus some other numbers can anyone explain if that a is the GB number? HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Rob Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
All, I thought I was about done with my questions. I was going to put on the left side seal and flange today and noticed the way Dave used the flange bolts to hold the flange in place while torquing the bolt is on the right side. I do not want to put undue pressure through the gears in the diff and not sure if the non-slip clutches would hole the pressure. Could I use the same method with the bolts on the right side as in Dave's picture to tighten the left flange bolt also??? Thanks again for all the great tips. I apologize for highjacking this thread again but think anyone servicing the CV joints should most likely check this area while they are in there!!!!! Rob
And the answer is.......... No I guess that is why they call it Limited Slip. Any after some drama and a screwdriver I got he bolt torqued to 65 ft/lbs. It was very hard to get the left side held still as the casting is different than the right. I ended up using a round philips wedged against the top nut on the flange housing plate. I tried about every other combination and could not find one that works. I would be curious how any of you did this side! Left side down right to go. Rob
Yep... The LSD will break free under the torque you need. A leverage arm on the back side of the flange preventing movement does the trick. Some alu stock and a few bolts does the trick. If you have the factory tool catalog, they show a similar fixture to what I'm describing.
