308 F.I. plastic lines to injectors - Weak design?

I have several spare fuel lines with both rigid and plastic tubing to hack apart/dissect, if need-be. Should be available this sunday if you are....FYI.

 

This sounds like another good business opportunity for Verell or Birdman etc.
Sell pre-made fuel lines with fittings attached and pressure tested, ON AN EXCHANGE basis or a RE-BUILT basis.
You send in your old lines and they are rebuilt or exchanged for new. (using your old fittings)
I've never had a problem with the lines but they are 20+ years old now, so it's something to think about.
SS lines are also an excellent option, that's one place that I wouldn't mind NOT using OEM lines for something superior.
This is an excellent thread !

 

Steve,
That is a great idea....for someone else. I have no intention of getting involved in a business of building or selling fuel injection parts, the failure of which could cause a fire! No thanks! But I will track down the proper fuel line and let everyone know where to buy it, or even buy a bundle and sell off the excess if I have to.

Dave,
I am personally only interested in finding the correct line. It lasted more than 20 years, so it's pretty good to begin with. It has been hard enough tracking down the right stuff....not sure I want to track down a compatible, more expensive, possibly non-existant alternative. That's your assignment!!

Birdman

 

Dave,
The SS line is available. Again, made by Cohline specificly for fuel injection applications. It's interesting to note that the line versions specificly developed for K-Jet are 1.4 mm and 2.0 mm ID.

Some of the 911 guys mention using it.

The picture is a 2 tables of Cohline's polyamide tubing. The 2nd table is the SS covered lines. Both are available from:
http://www.newcoproducts.com/

Of course with the SS line, you'll need a metal ferrule, or some other way of keeping the ends from fraying.
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Another point of confusion. Someone in a previous thread pointed to DS Sales as a source for these lines. I dropped them an e-mail and received this back:

Hi Jonathan;
You need 5-893 tubing which is 3mm ID. The cost is 15.20 + shipping for 5 Meters. You Just need to cut off the old lines with a razor blade. Dip the new hose in hot water to soften, then install on fittings. Goes on easily. Don't kink the hose! If you think it is 6mm ID the part # is 5-896 & 5 meters costs 20.40. We accept Visa & American Express.

Birdman

 

Hmmmm....this would be a good way to put an end to the discussion of ID!! If you don't mind cutting one open, that would be cool. I volunteer to repair it with new line when we are done.

Birdman

 

I'd love to sit in on this. Chris is coming over Sunday AM sometime to help lift his tranny up onto the stand, but after that I'd be interested in getting together. Weather's supposed to be nice Sunday, so it'll be an opportunity to squeeze in another 308 ride before I take it off the road & start pulling it apart.

 

I believe the correct ones would be:

3011.0305-20 -> for the WUR connections
3011.3106-20 -> for the injectors

The WUR ones are 5mm outside diam. and there's only one reference for 5mm (3011.0305-20)

For the injectors the outside diam. is 6mm and there are two references for 6mm .... I've made a very small cut on one of the line ends and measured the wall thickness: 1,4mm , so it can only be 3011.3106-20

My car is a Euro 328 (1988)
Would anyone care to confirm this, please?

 

I just got off of the phone with Ed Redwinski, Cohline GMBH's US tech support. He doesn't have the cross reference to the Ferrari application. However, he said that the 3011.3106-20 is not on file, so isn't stocked anywhere in the US!!

Cohline GMBH only sells to distributors. Is willing to import a 20m roll if we can find someone to front for us. A distributor, is's going to add a markup. He suggested we order thru Larry Fletcher as his CIS rebuilding company has an account there. I'm sure Larry will help out.

Std shipping from Germany is via container ship, Cohline's next container will be coming in in early January. However, he's able to have it sent via air as long as hist customer pays for it, probably an extra $50.

I believe it's time to dissect a 6mm injector line & verify it's dimensions, then if we confirm it's 3011.3106-20 I'll call Larry & we'll get a roll coming via air. If its one of the lines already available, we'll probably order a thru a distributor.

 

Sounds like a plan!

 

Aside from your car being Euro, are all the injected 3xx series gonna be the same?. I have an '86 328 USA spec, and was wondering.

 

I've contacted Cohline in Europe (UK) and I'm waiting for a reply. I'll let you know when I get an answer

 

Here's an update. Yesterday Verell and I wandered up to Belmetric and I bought some 5/3 line to try. We are going to meet on Sunday to take apart some other components and be sure that 6/3 is what we want.

Last night I designed a slick little tool which installs these hoses on the hard pipe, which is astonishingly difficult without it. (I ruined about half the tubing I bought, making attempt after failed attempt to get even one hard pipe into the plastic hose without kinking it.) I believe the real reason for the thicker wall of the 6mm OD tube is so it will not kink when you assemble it! I will at some point draw up the design for the tool and post a few pics. You can make it yourself in less than half an hour.

If it turns out that we are looking for 6/3 rather than the 5/3 that "gets the job done," Verell is going to order a roll of it and you will be able to get it from him. It will be good to have a solid U.S. source for the correct hose, not just something that gets the job done.

According to the Cohline rep, we have to order it from Germany as there is none in the USA. No biggie.

Birdman

 

You can use a brake flaring tool vice to hold the line, thats what I used first then I just sat on the front step of my house (this is the critical part), then I pushed the line on with my hands and found that worked better.

 

You must have great technique because I couldn't do it like that....the hose kinked every time. I tried heating it, lubing it, heating it and lubing it, doing it cold, twisting it, wiggling it....every time it kinked or collapsed. Maybe that is the nature of the Cohline tubing, which I know you were not using on your Boxer. I think this is the real reason they use the thicker-walled 6mm tube.

Alas, my improvised installation tool makes it easy.

Birdman

 

Gentlemen,

I'm in if "we" are going to do a Group Buy once we are sure of what we want.

Also, I live in Germany and I'll see if I can get the stuff and at what price/meter if I can.

I'll post Monday (NOV 19) or Tuesday (NOV 20) nite for most of you as I am on GMT+1 or US Eastern +6, as to what I find out.

MWR4440

 

Mark,
Great idea. It's nice to have a contact in Germany! We were told by the U.S. Cohline distributor that the 6/3.15 tubing we want is not popular enough for him to stock, so if we want it, we need to buy a roll of it from the manufacturer through the importer (U.S. Distributor) through a U.S. dealer. Meaning, we need to get a U.S. dealer to order it from the Distributor who would order it from Germany and they would either put it in the next container (January) or pay to have it FedExed. If we order enough, the extra cost to have it sent via air immediately is no big deal. Depending on how cheap you can get it in Germany, we may be able to save some money. However, Verell has a contact who is a dealer and will sell it to him at a very good price if we buy a lot, so who knows. One way or another, we are going to get the right injector hose!

Today we will be taking apart some injection lines and get a confirmation on the ID of the 6mm stuff that is OEM on the injectors of the 308/Mondials. Stand by.

Birdman

 

It's not quite that complicated. The importer is the US offices of Cohline GMBH( the manufacturer). I've already talked to a US distributor who's willing to give me a very good price. The distributor I'm talking has enough of an 'in' with Cohline that it may be possible for Unobtainium Supply Co. to become a 'distributor' so the line would always be available rathar than just thru a one time group buy.

 

Sweet!

 

When you guys find the right tubing count me in for a group buy. I have an 81 308 GTSi.

stephen

 

We cut an original 6mm injector line donated by M.James today. The ID measured 2mm, wall thickness measured 2mm.

Now to find a way to insert the barb fittings into a 6 x 2 line. Birdman did some experiments with the 5x3 line & found that it's very hard to push the barb into it unless you use a tool similar to the one the 911 forum's echrisconnor made (see pic).

However, it doesn't appear possible to force the barb into a 6x2 line by hand. I'm going to get a few meters of 6x2 & see if I can make an arbor press based tool to do the insertion. Using a 6x2 line may well take either pre-heating the line & fittings, or else using a reamer like C&S Supply suggests.

The other alternative is to use 6x3.14 line, pressing a barb into it by hand using a holder like echrisconner's is probably hard but doable.
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Since gas stations don't have to post a 'contains ethanol' anymore (at least they don't have to in Kansas), it might a good idea to get gasoline and ethanol compatable tubing and hoses.
It is not going to get any better.
Just a thought.

Stephen

 

The OEM tubing is polyamide (aka Nylon(tm)). It's about as solvent resistant a material as you're going to find other than Teflon.

 

I'm confused here ... I can't find a 6x2 line on the catalogue. It is either 6x3.15 or 6x4 ...
Meanwhile there is a local (Portugal) stockist of Cohline, so I'll have prices later today. We can then compare them

 

Cohline doesn't make 6/2. There is another source someplace for the 6/2. I personally believe that the 6/2 is going to be very hard for people to work with and the 6/3 is going to be the best thing to use. The 5/3 is extremely tight on the connectors, so the ID of 3 is more than snug enough. You will not be able to assemble 2mm ID hose on the connectors without a press or a reamer to ream out the hose. Verell and I disagree on this but I think reaming the hose is a bad idea because it's unpredictable what will happen to the strength of the hose in that section.

For now I have put 5/3 on the Mondial (which is what it had anyway) to get me going until we come up with the fatter stuff. I vote we get a roll of the 6/3 and test it out.

Birdman