308 front header removal

Does anyone have the latest theory on removing the front header on an early 308? Will it come out without removing the fuel tank? I ran a search and found some info, and I am sure once I get my arms in there I will figure it out, but doing the least amount of work would suit me fine for now. Will it come out the bottom or out the side, or will it come out the drivers side???

This is a 77 non cat car, although it did have the wrapped headers. Over half of the wrapping is gone, either torn off or broke off. Its quite a bastard looking thing, pretty ugly. I read that the alt., does not need removing, but I will pull it anyway if for no other reason than to clean it. Any advise will be greatly appreciated.

 

I don't know if it will come out or not without removing the gas tank but when I'm working in that area I always remove the gas tank. It's not too hard to get out and I like the room it affords me.

 

I have the alt., and starter motor out. Pulled all the wiring out of the way, disconnected the shift linkage. Looks like if I can get the shift rod off at the shifter box and slide it forward I may be able to sneak it out the bottom. I may have to remove the dip stick tube as well, but first the shift rod.

I spent another half hour spraying down the front of the motor with solvent, everything is just sooooo covered with greasy oily grime. Car needs some Rust-eze.

 

if you haven't pulled the shift rod yet, think twice! once removed from the trans you'll then have to re-sync the shifter to the gears. not reall hard but a PIA by yourself and time consuming.

just went thru this on the mondi, in the end i grabbed a 8" c-clamp and held the output link onthe trans slightly off level -tipped towards the passenger side. and then tightened the turnbuckle. after that it'll all lined up smooth again. biggest pain is the under/out of going back in forth to check the shifter sync.

 

I concur, putting the shifter back right is a PITA and really requires two people so one person can sit in the car and put it in different gears until you have it set right.

Birdman

 

I already have the rod disconnected. Too late. I pulled the dip stick tube. The rod though, only moves forward a little ways, not enough to slip the header past. Next would be to remove the shifter assembly which would seem to require removing the console. &%#*@^%!^. Okay, that is the first I have swore at my Ferrari. Okay, it wasnt. The first time was a few hours ago, when I noticed some total retard hackdude had peeled open the rocker panel along the bottom weld line to replace the AC hoses. I noticed it when I skinned my skull on the sharp metal edge getting out from under the car. They hid it well with some pop rivets.

I probably need to remove the console anyway, so as I can slip the parking brake cable back in. For some reason, hackdude didnt tighten it very well, as when I hardly pulled on the rear bracket to work on the rear header, it simply slipped out. All mangley on the inner end, I doubt it was originally put together like that.

Between people who refuse to maintain thier car, and hackdude mechanics that can screw up more than they fix, its a wonder this stuff even runs sometimes. Why bother putting on brand new carburetors when the car has massive exhaust leaks and cracked headers. Why install and adjust new carbs, and connect the same crappy old hose back onto them. Why install MSD ignition boxes, and run the hot lead off the battery lead starter terminal, unfused, up and over the fuel tank and hoses, and through a ungrommeted hole into the trunk. Hackdude even ran an unfused #6 wire right off the battery, through the cockpit, under the door trim, back to the trunk through more ungrommeted holes, so as to run some big amps. Think Hackdude wanted it to burn. He sure tried. This is old stuff too, been that way a long time.

Birdman, this car has your fuseblocks in it already, and it came with another unused set as well. Guess the previous owner bought an extra thinking he needed two? Very very good workmanship on them I must say. Guess as long as I have another 308 I may as well put them in it?

 

I removed the front headder off my car earlier this year. It was on a 77 GTB with the full wrapping on it. Probably the biggest mechanical PITA I have ever encountered. This is what had to come off and believe me it HAD to come off:

- Passenger side gas tank
- Alternator
- It helps but is not necessary to move the AC compressor
- Dipstick tube
- Shifter assembly. Not just the yolk to the transmission but the threadded extension aswell
- Of course the exhaust system comes out
- remove the bolts to the engine mount and you will have to tilt the engine a little.
- Remove the gas analyser tubes if they are still there

Worse still is removing the nuts that hold the headder in. They are a pain. Now for the good part. When the header is out, cut off all that heat shield crap off and get them ceramic coated. They go back in literally in minutes and all the nuts are easily acessible. My underhood temps are much cooler and the whole lot just looks better. Good luck with the project.

 

I will add one more thing and decided to make it another post. If I had to do it over, I would have honestly removed the engine from the car. It sounds extreme but it is not. TRUST ME. Once you remove all the stuff to get the header out you will see that nothing more than a gas line, throttle cable and ignition cable, along with the driveshaft bolts and the engine was ready for a pull. Not only that but half the things I mentionned to pull could have been left in and you would not have to struggle with the header nuts (the slowest part of all). You would also have the engine out for a good cleaning and simple service and the engine bay coudl get a nice detailing. In truth you could get a lot more done with less effort and about the same time. Just my opinion but I was there a few months ago.

 

Funny you mention this. Somewhere this afternoon I realised this as well. If I wernt working alone, and if I didnt have the house up for sale and trying to keep it looking nice, I would have considered this. But I do want the parking brake to work, so I am already kinda sorta needing to pull the console. I have Verell's lever bezels, so I can just as easily do those, as well as make sure everything is tidy down in there. In addition, the inner sheet metal behind the passenger fuel tank has peeling paint/undercoat. I may as well clean it up a bit and spray it to at least protect it for the future.

But after two years of monkeying around with 308's, I really just wanna drive the darn thing. I so far have only driven a 308 just under 100 miles over the last 6 years. I knew better than to try it once I seen and heard the front header cracks, but darn it, I was sure tempted. I have 100's of hours now into working on them, but I am now just about there. Once I get that swapped over, and put all that stuff back, I can get it out once and for all.

 

I can understand your sentiments Paul and given your house situation, pulling the engine is out. I do however strongly advise that whatever header goes back in that it not have any of the US spec shielding on it. Once I took it off I realized that it is next to impossible to put back on with the engine in. The reason is that the increased diameter of the header tubes with the shielding on them interferes with the ability to spin the nuts back on. Effectively if you want to put the header back on, you need to balance it on the very end of the mounting studs and start all the nuts without pushing the header flange against the head. If you slide the header flange against the head before starting all the nuts, it will be impossible to get them started because the shielding will be in your way. This is a pretty delicate exercise and I believe to be almost impossible with the header in place. On the other hand if you peel all the header shielding off and get them ceramic coating (It took me 2 days to get mine back), the header slips in easily. I had mine bolted up in about 30 mins (compared to about 2.5hrs to get the 8 nuts off). Not only that but re-assembling everything is easier and you will have much more room.

One other tip. To remove the gas tank on a US car you need to lift the engine a little because there are 3 hoses on the top of the tank that get in the way of the removal and (a little harder) the re-installation. It seems as though all the things that were done to these cars for US spec makes your life much harder when working on them.

 

Thanks for the input Robert. Actually, both headers had busted up shielding. The rear had burned through from a broken header tube. The front? Most of it was gone, and all the insulation is totally gone. Its just some flaps of aluminum hanging around the header and Hackdude put a couple big hose clamps around what was left to keep it from rattling.

Im putting the headers off the other car on it for now. Now that I see what REAL US headers look like, I believe the other ones are euro. That have little threaded standoffs for attaching heat shields, whereas the car I am working on have totally different looking headers. I have sprayed the entire exhaust with 1500* header paint, including the ANSA muffler. This winter I will plan something different, for now its drive time.

I still laugh when I look at the build quality. All the welds look really pretty on the frame tubes until you get to a some bracket for emission junk, Then its the nastiest weld you ever seen, total crap. Its like Luigi was very proud to build a street racer for Mr. Ferrari, did his best work. Now the USA wants Luigi to add this useless bracket and hang this useless part on this beautiful machine. &$^#*@. Luigi he put it on, but you ainta gonna like it.

And did you all stop to consider. Almost all of the emission control parts and equipment are there only to make the car meet emission standards at idle, or while its not running? The air pump is only needed at idle, as is probably all that insulation on the headers. And all the canisters and lines and dodads are only there to collect the minor amount of fumes that might collect after you shut it off. The EPA, IMO, made a mess of everything by being to strict. If they had concentrated solely on driving speed exhaust emissions and taxed displacement, I think it would have been a happier world. It certainly would have kept our cars much simpler and easier to maintain.

 

That's funny. Every once in a while I get an order for two pairs, and it is someone that thinks that since the car has TWO fuseblocks, they need to order two. Yet my website explains MANY times that you get a PAIR! When someone orders two, I always e-mail them and ask if they have TWO cars to put them in and many times they misunderstood. (Other times they are just lucky dudes that actually DO have two 308's!) Oh well, hey, now you have a set for both cars!

Thanks for the comments on workmanship. They are certainly not mass produced "production line" products, but I try to make them as nice as I can for a hand-made item. ("Made by hand, like your Ferrari!")

Birdman

 

Hey Robert,
Just out of curiousity, if one were to cut the heat shield off the headers BEFORE removing from the car, would that make removal any easier? If you are planning on removing it to jet-hot the headers anyway, there is no harm in cutting it off before pulling the headers.

Birdman

 

I was just thinking the same thing but wondered if you'd be able to get to the top of it.

 

Cutting the shielding off is a pretty involved job that requires the header to be out of the car. Once you have it off you will see what I mean but it is not reasonable to cut it off when on the car. Not only that it is full of asbestos which makes a huge mess. Underneath is a really nice set of headers made from stainless steel. Seems like a waste to hide them the way they did.

 

When I first went to put my muffler on this car, I couldnt get the bolts past the shielding on the rear header. As the stuff looked torn, I thought I would pull it off. Well, what a darn mess. Nuvolari is correct. I dont know if its asbestos, but its nasty stuff. Took me over an hour working on the rear header, only to find a broken primary tube. The front header is missing over half the metal shielding, and all of the insulation. But they dont look as nice of headers as the other pair I have.

I dont know why I didnt just pull out the fuel tank, I guess having read someone saying they pulled it out from underneath I thought I could too. I cant. I even took out the motor mount bolts and slid the motor around. No joy. I slid it back and to the left, but there is still no way it will come out. Now I have so much stuff taken apart I think I will just pull the motor. Then I can put some seals and gaskets in it so it stops leaking and fully degrease the darn thing. GRRRRRRRRR!!!!

 

After you remove the old heat shielding, be sure and fab up a new heat shield for beneath the alternator or it will fail eventually. At least three different people have told me that. I'm cutting one out of stainless on my CNC plasma cutter in the next couple of days for mine. I'll post a photo when I get it done.
Thor
www.JavelinArt.com

 

If you are pulling the engine, it is a perfect time to change ALL the fuel lines especially the one from the filler neck to the tank. It is super easy to do with the engine out and is little more than the cost of the tubing to do. When I pulled my header last winter I was not totally sure as to the age of all the hoses so I changed all of them. This way I know exactly the age of everything. Way too many of these cars have burned due to old cracked hoses and I did not want to be one of them.

 

Even if you ceramic coat the headers?

 

Truer words have never been spoken!

 

That's what I've been told. My headers just got ceramic coated, and I'd rather spend a little time and make a heat shield than possibly have to replace the alternator down the road. A little sheet metal, a bit of bending, a couple of hose clamps, and I'll feel better about it.

If mine turns out, do you want me to send you one? Dang, my steel piece is only 6" wide and I need 8". I'm going to have to scrounge up a bigger piece tomorrow.
Thor
www.JavelinArt.com

 

The headers from the other car are more than obviously NOT US spec headers. Either that, or the earlier car had a different style. They have welded places near the flanges where I assume test ports once were, yet they also have large plugs or "bungs" down low more towards the collectors.

But the early headers have threaded standoffs that are obviously to bolt on heat shields. FYI in case anyone missed it, early is car number 21181, the other is 21645. March and May build date 1977.

Wife forbids me doing any car work today, said she is tired of seeing me dirty, LOL. If I pull the motor, I will try to solve as many issues I can in as short of time possible, including Mr. Fillerneck. There are hoses that have clamps that litterally came off in my hands, they were that deteriorated. There is also some oil coming from somewhere, and I think its from the shift shaft. There is like no sense doing this level of work and not correcting that, does anyone know the size of the two O-rings that go in there?

One last thing. without pulling the fuel tank there is NO way that header will come out. I removed all the motor mount bolts, the torque rod, and both slid the motor back and jacked it up, and there is still not enough room to slip it out. I spent some time taking apart the console and removing the seats to be able to pull the shift rod forward, and its useless. Not a waste of time as I needed to gain access to the parking brake cable end, and to install Verells Bezels. But the point is, if you want that header out without pulling the engine, you have to pull the fuel tank. It might come out from underneath on some cars, but the amount of labor to pull the shift rod has to far exceed the time it would take to pull the fuel tank. Before I actually pull the motor, I will take off the deck lid. Its been on all along and I have worked around it, and it also limits how far I can lift the motor. If I can slip the header out with the motor jacked up higher, im going for it. Let ya know.....

 

I'm sorry Paul I've been out of town, did you get it?

The deal to avoid messing with the shifter is to loosen the motor mounts and just jack the whole engine up slightly in the car!

I have done the operation and everything else regarding RH tank and alt is correct...stud bolts are by feel. Get new copper gaskets...

I doubt there are many decent used units left, I've paid 250 to 700 each....I'd be tempted to repklace with Quicksilver!

PM if you need anything.....mine blew into SEVERAL pieces and lit a nice fire from the belts and hoses against the RH Tank......


"Bail out Speed Racer....BAIL OUT!"

Elapsed time for me six months.....only a couple of days, once my courage was up though.....get a big box and throw all the parts in!

 

As I just posted in another thread, I think the stock headers are crude. Outside of fixing or buying used, I would try having some custom made. All I did today is remove the deck lid. Tomorrow I will attempt to raise the engine up as high as I can and try to slip that header out without undoing much more. If I have to start yanking axle shaft bolts I will just pull the motor. Thats about all thats left now. But my fear is if I once lift it out, I will want to start fixing other things. I want to drive it, and I can tear it apart later or during the winter.

But I will say, other than a thing like this header, its really a simple car. Yes, it can be difficult to gain access to certain things, but its easy to work on. I had the seats and console out in under an hour. I am going to pull the shifter box and take it apart and lube it up. With nothing connected it seems to have a lot of drag and I feel it should be more slippery. So, does anyone know the o ring sizes for the shift shaft seals?

 

Hi Guys,
I fabbed up a quick Heat Shield tonight, and I think it looks pretty nice. All I need to add is a couple of stainless hose clamps and it'll be ready to go back on the engine.

This is a stock header which has been ceramic coated. It looked pretty nasty after the stock heat shield and asbestos packing were cut off, but not after ceramic coating it.
Thor
www.JavelinArt.com
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login