I'm in a head and heart situation and need some clarity, I hope you can help. The requirement for a slightly more sensible car has come about and as such the Caterham is going and while a number of safe choices are in the offing 964 & UR Quattro the slightly left field option is a GT4. Being a child of the 70's, I like wedge styling and having looked more closely I'm surprised just how practical the GT4 is. However I'm under no illusions of the potential moneypit they could be and don't want to rush in where fools may dare but at the same time I could be waiting forever for that elusive car. So anyway I went to see a GT4 yesterday and at the point where the salesman said it had no history and he was unsure it been used much during the previous owners 7 years of tenure, I was ready to walk out the door with alarm bells ringing however nothing ventured nothing gained so I looked a bit deeper. Now I know a shiny paintjob can hide a multitude of horrors but it looked straight, with no obvious signs of rust or recent respray. From a more practical position my sons child seat fits, as do I which is a real plus. SAle price reflects the lack of history and includes service plus cambelt change. So if I decide to go back for a test drive what do I need to look for ? My local independent is Rosneath engineering, which while I don't frequent Ferrari circles, I believe gets good recommendations so were things to progress further then I would get them to complete a full buyers inspection so again what should I be asking them to concentrate on in terms of their report ? Many thanks in advance Steve
I think you pretty much answered your own question there, get it inspected by a specialist before you buy. Maybe somebody on this forum owned the car? It might be worth posting some details to see if anybody knows it. That's what happened with my Mondial t, I was buying over the phone (from a dealer, so there was at least some comeback if it was a dud) and I posted a similar message to yours on here. Two previous owners appeared, and after talkng to them I bought the car. You need to find out when it last had a major service, the seller should at least be able to give you the name of the previous owner.
Welcome. Since you are new, you should look at the banner at the top of each page. There is a "search" function here that will give you access to the dozens of threads that discuss what you should be looking for and looking at when evaluating these cars. And it's not just limited to the GT4. The same discussions that have been had on looking over prospective 308s, Mondials and 328s also apply to the GT4. Most importantly, be sure to have a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) done by a reputable shop that you can trust. If the seller is legitimate, they should have no problem allowing an independent to do a PPI for you. It's nice that they are throwing in a belt service, but you should ask for a detailed listing of what they will actually do during the service. Even with that, you still want a PPI. At the top of this section (308/328/Mondial forum), there are a couple of "stickies." Read them. And check out the website for Birdman (you can locate him here on F-chat and link to his website). There is a wealth of information about these cars there, and what to look for when purchasing. Hope that helps. And fill out your profile so we know who you are, where you're from, etc.
There will be people on this site who will tell you to run away unless the car has very complete service history. There will be others who will tell you to ignore service history, get the car at a great price, and then have all service done. That way you'll know that all work has been done properly. There will be people on this site who will tell you not to buy the car without a through PPI from a respected shop. There will be others who will tell you to start the car, drive it, listen to it, and make up your own mind. (It's just a car, they will say.) They will also point out that it is silly to spend a significant percentage of the car's value on an inspection. Whichever of the camps you most agree with, reading up here on FChat is a great way to spend some time. Just remember, most people post online when they have problems with their cars. Seldom do people get online and post "Car Runs Fine!" This will give you the impression that the cars are very, very fragile and not very reliable, which really isn't the case. That said, although it's great that the seller will replace the belts for you, you may want to consider asking for a larger discount, and then pay to have belts and hoses replaced at one time. The cars are getting on in age, and, unless the fuel and coolant hoses have been replaced already, they are overdue.
If the price is right and the "service plus cam belt change" includes all the incidentals that come up or are found, it could be a great deal. I would suggest at least getting someone who knows the mechanicals of these cars to take a look at it. Body work can be done by just about any shop. Parts and service for a Ferrari on the other hand can be an entirely different story.
Thanks for the replies. I clearly need to have a look round and then come back with some more questions. As I understand it the previous owner who was is a garage proprieter bought the car 7 years ago but has only used it sparingly since. Now in his 70's he is disposing of his car collection of which this is one. It's a 1980 car with a mileage reading just under 50k although of course that can't be verified.
I like buying my Ferraris from old guys.......odd that he wouldn't have at least the last 7 years from his own ownership, but maybe did not realize the importance modern buyers place on such things... Just being "rust free" at this age would have me reaching for my wallet, were I shopping for a GT4.... 308GT4s are well represented here, maybe some other owners will chime in....all of mine are GTBs.
I'll chime in here. As a newish GT4 owner I can tell you what I've learn't from my experience thus far. Get a PPI. Be prepared as there is work to be done to it. As for when to walk away it's all in your budget. Are you a DIY guy or not, could make a huge difference. I bought mine without a PPI, 15k rust free and it ran. This was in late summer last year. I went into this with eyes wide open knowing money was going to be spent. Also I went into this looking at it as a hobby knowing full well that what I put into her I would most likely not see all of it if I sell. Well even a PPI wouldn't tell me that I would have a major gear box failure. So you really don't know what is what until it happens sometimes. Don't look at the GT4 as an investment. I look at it like this. These cars are very special. There are only so many still driving. Each of us has a certain responsibility to keep these cars in shape for the next owner, who in turn will have to do the same. All I know is when I buy my next car, hopefully a GTS, the first thing I'll be doing is pulling the engine and rebuilding it. I most likely won't get a PPI as I know I'll be pretty much rebuilding the car. So that's my thoughts and experiences. Oh and there is nothing cheap about these cars. As Big Red says, if you can't afford an expensive Ferrari you sure as hell can't afford a cheap one
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No rust! great, buy some cam belts and idlers your home free. Suppose it just depends on how persnickety you are. Personally you can repair rust, replace belts, fix leaks but they aren't making any more of these cars.
As a newbie here it's good to get such a positive response, thanks The advice give nicely backs up what I've read so thanks for that. As ever there never enough time to get everything done but nonetheless I've booked a test drive for this afternoon, I'll tell you how it goes, but just very quickly when running hot what sort of water / oil temperatures should I be expecting ?
Depends on outside air temp, but mine runs on the cooler side when cruising at freeway speeds. Oil temp gauge barely makes it to the midway point, if that.
My water temp was running just under the mid point on some hot days. Oil didn't hit the mid point either. Takes a while for the oil to warm up, at least 15 min.
Hi, First of all welcome and I hope you'll get your Ferrari soon! Maybe not this one, but who knows. Maybe you could also post in the UK section. I'm sure it's a benefit to have some local guys giving you advice.
For what its worth, if you go to see it today try to get them to keep the car cold for you. Tell them you need to be there for its first start of the day. Look for any smoke from the tailpipes on initial start up. Let the car run for five to seven minutes and listen for any odd noises, valve ticking, etc. and check for leaks while this is taking place. If you see a couple of puffs of smoke and it quickly dissipates, no problem. More, and you could be looking at a worn motor. No pops through the exhaust or carbs are good indications when its cold. When its hot and you back off the throttle it may pop through the exhaust which is heavenly and there is nothing wrong. Drive the car off and pay very close attention to how the gearbox shifts when its still cold. If it won't let you shift second gear that is okay - its a commonality with the early 308 drivetrain. If it lets you shift into second see if you feel any grinding of the gears as you shift. You shouldn't and it will indicate a weak 2nd gear synchro - also very common - but an engine out repair. These cars are at the age when the steering rack will be worn. Check for play in the steering or bumping back on your hands when hitting bumps in the road. Its not a big deal to have it rebuilt (I have someone here on LI who is very experienced and cheap) but its a bargaining chip if you find it worn. Look for indications of a shade-tree electrician running wires outside of the harnesses. Its not a good sign when someone has cobbled the electricals. This may be common for any car but I thought I'd mention it. If the car needs brake components like rotors or calipers, remember the parts alone will cost a minimum of $2000 to put right. If you are good with a wrench I would ask them to deduct the cost of their "belt change service" from the cost of the car, do the job yourself on a nice day. (If they are so willing to do the belts why didn't they do them already? Probably because they clearly will be negotiating on the price of the car.) Check the radiator for signs of repairs (bulky solder seams or ugly black paint on the radiator). Any missing parts (small seemingly insignificant interior parts can cost a bundle) should be accounted for. With regard to oil temp, if the gauges are right you should see 190 and 190 after driving for a half hour. Up to 210 on the oil temp is okay but you usually don't see that unless driving it hard. Good luck and let us know what you find.
I think this is very good advice. In general if you're buying from someone who you will probably never see again, try to buy it without any service or repairs. Better to do it yourself, have it done by someone you know and trust or by someone who will see you as a repeat customer (and build a relationship). Most vendors seldom have any interest to please you once the ink is on the paper.
This is the statement that bothers me. There is absolutely nothing "sensible" about owning a Ferrari of any year. Just don't kid yourself.
Compared to a Caterham, which is a trackday car, a GT4 is much more sensible (practical if you will).
Something that has been mentioned, but is true of just about any old(er) car, is that you either have to be a mechanic, or afford to have one on retainer, if you want to keep the car running. Well, it's not quite that bad, but it does help if you enjoy working on these cars yourself. A lot of the "routine" maintenance that needs to be done is perfectly doable by a shade tree mechanic with basic skills, and even some of the more sophisticated stuff, like changing the timing belts and idler pulleys, can be done if you are willing to read up on it and give it a shot. Having routine things done by a mechanic can get expensive, and serious work can get really expensive. But these really are great cars and much more reliable than many of the threads here would lead you to believe. The GT4 is a great car. A buddy of mine had one as his first Ferrari, and he still regrets having gotten rid of it. He has a 308 GTS QV now, but always says he misses the GT4. Take a few pictures of the car when you go for the test drive, and post them here. Especially take some pictures of the engine compartment from a couple of different angles, and the interior. You'll probably get a bunch of feedback by just posting the pics.
I've had mine nearly 6 years. Found it in Philadelphia, and inspected it myself - albeit with a Ferrari mechanic there to answer my questions. Drove it 1100+ miles home with only a minor electrical issue. At the time I was in something of a panic but now that I have a few years of ownership experience....no big deal. The car has ALWAYS started when I turned the key. I have nearly as much fun working on it and tuning it as I do driving it. There is no small measure of satisfaction on getting the mixture right or setting the timing, dwell, and idle speed right after replacing the ignition components. The engine pulls strong to the redline and dyno results show an incredibly flat torque curve for a small V8. It's a BLAST to drive! Not the fastest of cars but considering the way I drive, more power would mean more trouble ;-) not necessarily more fun. Plus I find it immensely comfortable. Then there is the sound. Our friends across the pond are lucky in that they get to drive on the side of the air intake thus enjoying the carburetion music all the more.... Fill us in on your test drive impressions and good luck!
I had one for 6 years. I sold it and don't miss it. It is nice, yes, I still don't miss it. This is what you should look out for: Rust. Make sure the rear trunk is not rusted through (everywhere) especially in the wheel wells Make sure you get the big 16 inch wheels, they don't make 14 inch performance tires anymore. No fun on those puny 14 inch bias ply tires. Leaks, from shift shaft, from distributors, from tranny-engine points Forget the AC Technically, my kids fit but they have never sat in the back. My wife does not like the smell of gasoline, so it is always just me in the car. Hoses, need to all be replaced at least once by now. If not, carry a fire extinguishe Fuse boxes melt, look for signs Turn on the heat, get a blast of road crap in the face. Put filters in the air scoop, no more crap but also no more air. Four weber carbs, make sure they are a matched set and not abused. Door panels, flimsy
....better question. What point to run away? Which speaks to ones fiscal fortitude to deal with a car. If you want a 'driver' expect to pay more upfront and save a little each month for when you need something. For a project...add time to the equation, and enjoy the process of resurrection. The cars handle well, look unique and the cab forward design makes you feel as if you were driving a VW Bus...no nose to look over but a heck of a lot closer to the ground. Life is short...if you want one get it. You can't take the money with you.
Did you buy it? Any questions pm me, I live quite locally to you and have a gt4. I also know abit about that car you looked at.......
Any GT4 is going to be 30+ years old, and they will ALL want something doing. The question is prioritising what needs doing, what is a nice to have, and how much you are prepared to spend. That decision will depend on what you expect from the car, how much of a perfectionist you are, and how deep your pockets are! Even with a specialist inspection there are all sort of problems that can lurk beneath the surface and separate a good car from a bad one once you start to use it regularly. I would say evidence of recent regular use is the most important thing to look for if you plan to drive it rather than sit it in your garage.
