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308 noise from the pulleys

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by ham308, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    I’ve got this noise. It’s been there all summer. A sort of loud whirring at 2000 rpm only. First I thought it was the transfer gears, but on closer investigation its coming from the timing belt side. Having searched the old site and having read Verell’s cam drive bearing thread with awe I’m desperately hoping it’s not that.

    So, having got the wheel arch out I tried the screwdriver in the ear bit, but my heart wasn’t in it with those belts flying round. Should really have a stethoscope. In any case the noise seems to echo from everywhere. The belts were all replaced professionally less than 2 years (2000 miles) ago before I bought the car. There is a tell tale weep of oil however from behind the front (oh heck) cam drive pulley.

    Some questions:

    Verell and others have said they could feel the play in the drive pulleys. How? I’ve levered a screwdriver against the pulley nut and the belt casing and both sides seem ok.

    How do you check if the front belt tensioner is ok and rotating? (you can’t see it)

    Thought I put some oil in the A/C compressor as it’s probably never been done, but what the hell is TER 54. Is engine oil ok?

    Is it likely to be the compressor?

    Any ideas, please?

    Thanks in advance.

    BTW running a Ferrari would be a lot less fun and a lot more expensive without this site.

    Richard
     
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  3. jimangle

    jimangle Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
    2,438
    Haverford
    Full Name:
    James
    With the engine off of course. Grab your water pump pulley and move it from side to side and see if there is any play in it. There should be none, that's a good sign that your water pump is about to go. Also see if the a/c belt has loosened up.
    Jim
     
  4. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    1,916
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Do not put engine oil in your AC compressor. Use refrigerant oil that is compatible for the type refrigerant you are using.
     
  5. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    1,916
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    As for the sound the engine is making, I would remove all the exterior drive belts and run the motor for a short period. If noise disappears, put them back one at a time running each time you replace one. Listen for noise as you replace them.

    If the noise is present with them all off, it could be your cam tensioner pulley. That would need to be fixed pronto.
     
  6. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    It's supposed to have 330 cc's of lubricant TER54 in it, but what is TER54? Hasn't anybody done this? :)
     
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  8. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    73,215
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    ham308,

    The refrigerant oil goes IN with the Freon (or whatever these days)
    It is charged into the system thru the A/C gauges when you fill the system.


    HTH
     
  9. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    OK thanks, I don't know much about A/C systems. In the handbook it shows a hand with a dipstick, looks like he's dipping the oil in the compressor.

    I'll keep away from the compressor then !
     
  10. treue

    treue Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2004
    275
    Oklahoma
    Full Name:
    Tom Treue
    Richard:

    From the symptoms you give, it is a cam drive pulley bearing and seal. It will only get worse with denial. The seal behind the bearing of one of my cam drive pulley bearings had worked loose and moved towards the left (clutch) side of the engine. The seals on the bearing then pulled away from the inner race allowing the bearing lubricant to escape and engine oil to leak past the bearing. Both balls and races were quite pitted implying that failure was near. While engine removal might be better for replacement, I was able to replace the bearing and seal with the engine still in the car (82 GTSi). I wrote an article about it in Prancing Horse magagzine; I forget which issue, though

    Tom Treue
     
  11. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,077
    It can also be that the drive gear bearings have died. This happend to a 328 we saw last month. The tensioner bearings were good, but there was over 1mm of play in shaft the drives the cam belt. Bearings (both inner and outer) were toast. This can result when the cam belt tensioners are set to tight.
     
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  13. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    6,993
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Sorry, I 've been getting my Unobtainium production line started up again & haven't been watching the FChat as much as I usually do.
    Anyway, here's the eMAIL I sent Richard:
    (I hadn't read this thread when I responded, so it suggsts some things he's already tried.)

    > tell me how you could feel the play in the bearings before starting the job.

    In my case it was very obvious, After pulling the passenger side wheel &
    fender liner, I started the car. My forward belt drive gear & the belt
    going around it was visably vibrating around by over 1/16". Not to
    mention the racket.

    Suggestions:
    0) Start the engine & watch the belts & pulleys to see if anything is
    vibrating/running unevenly. Hold A mechanic's stethescope, or length of
    ~1/2" pipe against the WP body, alternator, & A/C compressor to see if
    any of them is significantly noisier.

    1) Remove the alternator & WP belt(s) & start the engine. If the noise
    goes away it's the alt or WP. Don't run it more than a couple of
    minuites as there's no cooling w/the WP disconnected.

    2) Remove the A/C compressor belt & see if it goes away.

    2) Not WP,Alt or A/C? that leaves the cam belt tensioner bearings &
    timing drive gear bearings. A mechanic's stethescope, or length of ~1/2"
    pipe held against the timing gear cover & on the bolt that's visable
    thru the hole in each of the cam belt covers is likely to help localize
    the noise.

    A failing bearing in it's early stages can be pretty noisey without
    exhibiting much motion tho. On the other hand, when my WP's inner
    bearing failed, my only symptoms were the wp/alt belt melted itself
    around the WP pulley before breaking. Also the weep holes on the bottom
    of the WP were oozing grease & a miniscule amount of coolant. In either
    case a mechanics stethescope is your best tool.

    Let me know what you find. If none of these pan out, then send me your
    phone # & a good time to call you & we'll put our heads together.
     
  14. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    thanks for the email Verell. I'll have another crack at the weekend and try your suggestions.

    Richard
     
  15. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    6,993
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Richard,
    Could you be a bit more specific about the rpms. Is it only when the engine is 2000 +/- a few hundred RPM? Or just when at 2000 rpm & above?

    BTW, once I had my cam belts off I definitely could feel the looseness in the cam drive bearings.

    However, when my WP went, it was the rear bearing & I couldn't feel it, & the wp ran quiet for several weeks before the front bearing started to go noisily.
     

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