All, Depressing news on my front...my mechanic has given me the results of a leakdown test on my '85 Euro QV with just short of 90k miles on it. The 5-8 bank is fine with great compression (155-170psi) and tiny leakdown readings of 6-10%. The 1-4 bank, however, varies from 110-135psi on compression, and 3 of the four cylinders are 60-65% on leakdown with audible noise from the tailpipe and crankcase. To me, this means rings and valve job on bank 1-4, which of course means the whole she-bang. I know I can consolidate a lot of opinions from searching through the archives, but here are my goals and constraints. I am NOT wealthy, so budget is an issue. I really want to take the car to Montreal next month (from Virginia), so this job may be put off until after that trip. But once we're into the job.... I want opinions on OEM vs aftermarket items. My car is not a show car, I track it seldom but hope to do it more in the future but extraordinary performance is not critical to me. But if I can get something "better" and "faster" at approximately the same price plus or minus a reasonable amount, I'm all ears. I don't know how much of this I will do on my own. Maybe I can host a Mid-Atlantic tech party entitled "Engine Removal, Pressure Wash, and Disassembly." I've rebuilt an engine before, but I'd prefer to have someone with more experience do the reassembly (I will use my present mechanic). But I might try to do the easy stuff on my own and save a lot of labor cost. I don't know yet. Anyhow, as for parts, please recommend.... -Matt, Fredericksburg, VA '85 Euro 308 GTS/QV (55841) '38 Rolls-Royce Phantom III (3DL170)
Odd how there's such a big disparity in results between banks. Can someone comment on whether this is "normal" if uncommon, maybe the result of over-heating / lack of lube / etc on one side?
My engine, 77 308 GTB, had poor compression, as well as two burned pistons on the front bank. My feeling, and thats all it is because I didnt check it before tearing into the motor, was that the forward bank was running wit more advanced timing. It was also running stock jetting with P6 cams and 9.7:1 pistons, which probably didnt help it any. I have read so many horror stories on these cars, all cars in the world really, so many hacks out there that dont take the time to put things together properly. There was a mondial someone on here bought recently, that had the cams timed 180 degrees out on the front bank, and it ran just fine. The V-12 guys have stories that curl hair as well, motor supposedly put together by a "factory trained" mechanic, and all kinds of stuff put together wrong. It is not normal, but it isnt uncommon either. My personal feeling is these engines would run several hundred thousand miles very easily, if they were just kept in a correct state of tune. Regarding options, T.Rutlands is a good choice for parts at a somewhat reasonable cost. I bought my pistons through Wiseco, another good and reasonable choice. Its the shop work that could make or break you. Not only in finding a reasonable price, but a reputable company. I guess it would depend on how utterly perfect you want the rebuilt engine to be. I am not removing my head studs, not decking the block, wont be shaving the heads. But everything will be as utterly clean as its possible to do. You cant put back the metal you remove, and at the rate these cars are being cut up for parts, the day will come when finding virgin parts will be very difficult.
What Nick said! Check the cam timing on 1-4 before you go tearing into the engine. You can check the intake at least by putting the flywheel in 1_4, then look in the oil fill cap and see if the tick mark is lined up. On parts, you can get much better high compression pistons from JE or Weisco for a lot less than the F-car parts, not to mention rings, etc. Also, verify the liners are flush with the block. Someone here mentioned that theirs were off quite a bit and make their compression ratio closer to 7.5:1 vs the factory quoted 8.8:1 (carb. car).
Thanks for the replies so far. Question here...the thought that the cam timing might be wrong, thus resulting in poor compression is a possibility. If we think the valves are closed but they're really open, then of course that would cause the leakdown to be poor. However, my mechanic said that while he could hear noise out the exhaust pipe, the air in the crankcase was more evident. This would necessarily imply rings, right? -Matt
You did not mention how the cars was running. Seems like it would not be running very well with that kind of leakdown test. The rear exhaust cam timing was off by one tooth on the belt on my car. It started ok, but really ran crappy. Nobody could figure out what was wrong. We found the problem when we took off the belts to replace the outer cam drive gears. Everything went back together and the car runs perfectly. Mark PS Both cam belts had been installed by the former Ferrari dealer expert mechanic only 8 months before this was found...even the experts make mistakes
So what prompted the testing? Have you had the test replicated elsewhere to make sure the numbers are similar? If it's running fine (not overheating, good power, not burning oil, and oil testing shows no major contaminants, passes emissions), then why tear it apart? I vaguely remember hearing T Rutlands sells complete short blocks. I might be wrong, but if they do, perhaps that's a good way to go. True, the numbers won't match anymore, but I don't think it matters on the resale value of a 90K+ car
Hey, Matt! Don't fix it if it ain't broke! I'd check that timing real close first. Cheers from Charleston....
All, Thanks again for the messages. My mechanic is a reputable one who does work for a lot of the mid-Atlantic guys. He assured me that he double and triple checked the readings and then tried a different set of gauges. This is the health of the engine. Why did we do this check? I've always done 100% of the work on my car -- this is the first time I've left it at a shop for anything other than mounting tires or recharging the A/C. And this time, it really was just to get an alignment done, but he suggested we figure out where all the oil leaks were coming from. And we found the leaks were from one of the lower cam drive pulleys (which I've replaced bearing/seals there before), from an upper cam pulley bolt o-ring, rear main seal, front crank seal, cam seals (a little), and the gearbox was leaking at the o-rings on the bell housing. So we were just gonna do a 30k plus rear main seal....and he suggested doing the leakdown before going that far.... You're right, I'm not going to fix it right away, but I have plans for the fall after the summer driving season is over. It wasn't too long ago, maybe 18 months, that I had the car dyno'ed. It is a pure Euro, no cats, and it read 196 at the wheels. I figure that's a bit low -- perhaps due to a weak engine? It runs smoothly and strong enough that I don't notice anything, though... -matt
If it is the cam timing, how did it get off? It has over 90,000. Was it during a belt change and if so how long ago was the last one?
i had some poor compression readings , then we did a valve adjustment (shims), got good compression readings after that...
Assuming you get to the point of rebuilding the engine (no point in doing just one side, by the way). Your choices are: 1. Pop in a rebuilt engine from T.Rutlands, fast, easy, and mildly expensive. Probably in the $8-$10K when all is said and done. 2. Remove the engine and do it yourself with a smaller budget in mind. The absolute minimum requirement will run $1500 for parts, $1500-$2000 for machine shop. Anything else needing to be replaced costs more. $30-$40 per valve, $300-$400 main bearings, $200 rings, $200 valve guides, pistons and liners are much more expensive, valve springs can be reshimmed. My guess is to put aside $5000, even if you do all the work yourself. This is the reality of rebuilding any Porsche, Ferrari, or high end cars. Oh, count on 3-6 months. You would not have to buy all Ferrari parts. SI Valves make fine valves and valve guides. You can have a set of regular rings or gapless rings made for less than $200. Good luck with your engine.
