308 QV Plumbing & Electrical Help Needed | FerrariChat

308 QV Plumbing & Electrical Help Needed

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Adaptel, Oct 13, 2007.

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  1. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    Hello All,
    I purchased my first Ferrari a few months back, which is a 1985 308 GTS QV. It was in a "some assembly required" state, as it had suffered a catastrophic engine failure (2 broken connecting rods) and was partially disassembled when I got it. With the help of some amazingly helpful people in the Ferrari community and many hours of work, I have been able to work through the many issues with this car and am on the home stretch of getting it all back together.

    In this final stage of reassembly, I am clueless as to how some of the electrical and plumbing connections go together in the engine compartment. The manuals I have are for a slightly different year, and have a different design of the emissions system than the one shown in the manual. On top of that, the previous owner removed all of the labels which show the emission system connections. .Since I have never seen everything in a connected state, I would greatly appreciate if someone could help me get everything connected correctly. In this photo, I have labeled the following hose connections with Yellow Letters and electrical connections with Green Numbers to identify items that I am unsure as to their proper connection points:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Plumbing Stuff:
    A & B - What is this unit and where do the 2 small hose barbs connect to?
    C - On the underside, there is a small hose barb connection. Where does this connect to?
    D - Air injection valve? Where does this connect to?
    E, F, H - Vacuum ports (H is on the underside of the throttle body) that aren't hooked up to anything.
    G - This is a hose that come out of the right-side luggage compartment wall, and has a filter-type device on the hose. Where to next?
    I - This one comes from the luggage compartment left side, no clue as to where it connects to.
    Electrical Stuff:
    1 - This is a single stray wire that comes from the harness that runs under the intake plenum. It has a standard blade-type connector (female) and do not know what it connects to.
    2 - This is the weirdest one of all. It looks like a thermocouple or something, and comes from the right rear luggage compartment.

    Lastly, I have some confusion as to which flywheel sensors are which, and how they are connected.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    In the above photo, do I have the 3 sensors identified correctly, and does anyone know which ones go the the white (5), black (4), and blue (3) connectors in the upper left corner?

    Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to provide me with!!!
    *
    -Kevin Pearson
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,829
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Yes, your labeling of the flywheel sensors is correct.

    "2" is a thermocouple and goes in a fitting on the cat on the exit side (which places the tip of the thermocouple in the exhaust stream exiting the cat). If you don't have a cat, just store/wire tie it neatly to the chassis somewhere.

    Go to www.ferrariowners.com and get registered -- you'll then be able to download a copy of the 307/84 OM covering 1984 & 1985 US version 308QV which has the schematic and many useful figures that will help you. You'll also be able to go to the "Classic Parts" site where you can view the SPC illustrations for your year/model/version -- this will also be invaluable.
     
  3. Mark 328

    Mark 328 Formula Junior

    Nov 6, 2003
    510
    Orange, Ca
    Full Name:
    Mark Foley
    #3 Mark 328, Oct 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    My car is a 328 and it looks functionally the same, but visually slightly diffferent, however A & B is the electronically controlled switch that gets vacuum from E and switches it on during parts of the warm-up cycle to the cut-off "D".

    The attached diagrams from the Bosch KE3 Jetronic FI manual should help. The "A4" version is full size and the other edition is 8 1/2 X 11; this will print easy but may miss a few details. In this manual it looks like the vacuum source is from under the throttle body (your part "C") )instead os the plenum as mine is.

    You may want to check funtionality of your part "D" many of these are bad. Also you should look at the exhaust non-return valves; yours look corroded in the picture. They are the same as a 1969 Chevy part. When they go bad the cut-off valve (your part "D") gets burned out.
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  4. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    Amazing info!!!! Many thanks!!!

    I did check the cut off vavle and non-return valves and they are all bad. Does anyone know the GM cross reference part number? Does this air-injection system interfere with the engine's performance? I only ask becasue I have noticed that it seems common for people to cap off these tubes and disable the system alltogether.
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,829
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #5 Steve Magnusson, Oct 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    On your year/model/version, there are no compelling reasons to remove/disable the air injection system, and I would recommend against it (i.e., it's more of a $ penalty on a late 308QV resale than on a carbed 308 resale). On the earlier 308 there are more reasons for removing the air injection system (although I'd still penalize a carbed 308 unless the seller had all the parts in a box):

    Carbed 308 US
    belt-driven air pump(s) runs/run all the time = bad for power and raises temp all the time
    air injector nozzles block exhaust port = bad for power and they get damaged if the air pump is disabled by removing belt

    308-2Vi US
    belt-driven air pump(s) runs/run all the time = bad for power and raises temp all the time
    air injector nozzles block exhaust port = bad for power and they get damaged if the air pump is disabled by removing belt

    1983 308QV US
    belt-driven air pump runs all the time = bad for power and raises temp all the time
    air injector nozzles do not block exhaust port = OK, better withstands having the air pump disabled, and no power loss

    1984-1985 308 QV US and 328 US
    no air pump = OK, no power loss during warm-running
    system runs only during cold-running = OK, no additional heat during warm-running
    air injector nozzles do not block exhaust port = OK, no power loss

    With regard to replacing the parts, the check valve is a very common item (see the 308 part cross-reference thread, search, or just take the old ones to the parts store), but the cut-off valve may be harder to find (at least a substitute hasn't been mentioned here often so please do if you find one).

    Here's that same figure from the 307/84 OM for a US version 1984-1985 308QV -- what version (or VIN) do you have (I don't recognize that small electrovalve with "A" and "B" mounted on your AAV)?
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  6. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    With all your helpful info, and additional 1984 doccumentation I obtained on ferrariowners.com, I have been able to figure out where most everything connects to. The only question that remains is the exact connection of the air injection system. The "A"-"B" electrovalve does have another small hose connection on the bottom, which I did not notice when I posted this.

    My car is a 1985 US version, and the VIN is ZFFUA13A5F0055563. I found it strange that ferrariowners.com did not have any documentation listed under the model year 1985. I am guessing that this configuration was unique to 1985s.
     
  7. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    this should be the least of your surprises. Thus why this and other forums exist.

    nice job in getting it together. Would have been nice to see before/after shots.
     
  8. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    I fired this engine last night, and although it started, it ran really rough. I think it is only running on cyls 1-4, and there was a strong gasoline smell in the exhaust, and the front manifold did not get very hot. Putting a multimeter across the flywheel sensors, i noticed that TDC 5-8 was reading 3.1 megaohms, while the other 2 were reading around 680K. Am I correct to assume that I most likely have a bad sensor?

    I have taken lots of photos throughout this project, but I have not had a lot of time to post most of them yet, but will soon.
    Here is the exterior of 308 as it arrived:
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    The engine as it arrived...just chucked back into the car backwards:
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    Here is a shot of the crankshaft & connecting rods:
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    And one of the cylinder where the connecting rod "stub" punched its way through the cylinder liner:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    If you are interested in seeing more photos of this car, you can do so at my website. I will post many more in the upcoming weeks if anyone is interested:
    http://adaptel.com/gallery/?level=collection&id=4
     
  9. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2006
    15,812
    Cerritos, CA.
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Wow! that's a basket case, looks like it came out of a wrecking yard. You paid for that?
     
  10. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    understand your alarm: but YOU GO Adaptel!!!!!!

    gotta hand it to ya' to recover and make this car viable..... way to go....You've got my respect

    as I've said before: unless you can fill in the means to recover such: stay away, but in your case....you seem to be in heaven.

    BTW, LOVE the color and looks...perhaps trade the Mondi for similar [but in my case] working model :).
     
  11. Wolfgang5150

    Wolfgang5150 F1 Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
    4,706
    awesome work!!!!
    What was the story on why this engine imploded?
     
  12. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    No, I traded a bunch of chickens for it. Of course I paid money for it, but I paid an amount which reflected the vehicle condition. I think you are referring to my OTHER 308, which i mistakenly posted the link to above. No matter what condition it may be in, if it is a Ferrari, it has value that is worth money...just on a sliding scale based on condition.

    This car that I have been referring to in this thread has absolutley no body damage (besides a couple of paint chips), and it georgous in apprearance.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    The photo gallery link I meant to post is this one:
    http://adaptel.com/gallery/?level=collection&id=5

    I'm not sure as to what I'm going to do with the other collison-damaged 1981 308 GTB yet.

    Thanks! I'm pretty proud of it, and was a pretty ambitious project for me. From what I can tell, someone completley rebuilt the motor, using custom-made high-compression pistons & rings. There was not enough ring-end-gap and one of the pistons wedged itself into the cylinder when it came up to temp, and the rod pulled away. The pistons were like brand new, with no carbon whatsoever on top, and it seems that this motor exploded within moments of being started for the first time. I only knew "nas a blown motor" as the condition when I purchased it, and paid a price that took into account the worse-case scenario.

    Thanks! Yes, this is a hobby, and I enjoy doing the work, biut you mention a key point where you have to consider the cost of Ferrari parts when tackling a damaged ferrari. You can quickly get into something that will cost way more than it is worth in the end, which isn't the best place to be. I would reccommend to the average do-it-yourselfer against taclking either of these cars, but it is possible if you are patient & can pay attention to the very fine details that ferraris require. When all is said and done, this car will be a great vehicle, with a brand new engine, gone over from top to bottom, for a fraction of what it would cost to buy one in this condition.
     
  13. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    Just wanted to post an update to say that I've finally worked out all the issues with this motor & have got the QV running. In case anyone else needs this info in the future, I thought I"d post the difinitive answers to my plumbing & electrical connections in case anyone runs into this. On an 85 car, It is not so clear, even with the documentation. It appears that some things were changed in 85, and the 1984 manuals are the most current ones floating around out there. I have learned that my car has the Bosch K-Jetronic with the "lambda" mixture control system, which keeps the air/fuel ratio optimized through a computer in the rear side of the trunk, and the metering valve "C" (among other things). Referring to the photo in the beginning of this post:

    PLUMBING:

    A - Vacuum input to air injection electrovalve - this connects to the vacuum port, under the throttle body, right in front of point "E" in photo
    B - Control vacuum signal to air injection cutoff valve - this connects to point D in photo
    C - Lambda fuel bypass regulator - the hose port on the bottom of this device does not connect to anything and is simply an atmospheric pressure port. The electrical plug connects to the black connector.
    D - Air injection cut off valve - See B above
    E - Spark advance vacuum port - This connects to hose "I", and supplys vacuum to the two Marelli Digiplex spark advance boxes located in the left rear side of the trunk. These ECU boxes use the vacuum signal to determine engine speed and electronically advance the timing accordingly.
    F - Vacuum for vapor recovery - connects to vapor recovery system in rear right wheel well. See diagrams in info above.
    G - Vapor recovery check valve? - Again, see the diagrams in the literature for this one, it connected to a hose that was just hanging down in the right rear wheel well on the vapor recovery tank.
    H - Vacuum for air injection system - See A above. THere should be two air nipples under the throttle body, make sure you use the one that is more toward the front of the car, and past the throttle plate (if looking into plenum). The one in the rear (where my diagram is actually pointing to), goes to the warm-up regulator device, the thingy with two fuel lines & one electrical connector.
    I - Spark advance vac signal - See E above

    ELECTRICAL
    1 - A/C compressor clutch signal - Connects to compressor
    2 - Lambda control thermocouple - Instlals on the catalytic converter and is in the exhaust stream, and works with the oxygen sensor to determine the adjustments in fuel pressure to keep the air/fuel mixture correct. If your cat is removed, or hollow, this can be disconnected in the trunk, or tied up out of the way, and the lambda system will not function, and effectively be "out of the loop"

    FLYWHEEL SENSOR CONNECTIONS - Other photo in the beginning of this post
    TDC1-4 - Connects to Blue plug "3" with Blue & Green wires
    TDC5-8 - Connects to Black plug "4" with Black & Yellow wires
    SPEED - Connects to Grey plug "5" with Red & Red wires
     

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