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308 Suspension Rebuild Questions

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Nuvolari, Jan 18, 2004.

  1. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Owner

    Sep 3, 2002
    5,382
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    Hi All,

    After scouring the archives I still have lots of questions for my winter project of a suspension re-build for my 77 308 GTB. I am looking at going for the ES bushings over the stock and have the following questions:

    1. Are the black bushings graphite impregnated to stop squeeking? If so is there a special designation when ordering these?

    2. Will the car ride any harsher with urethane bushings? If so how much?

    3. What are the exact part numbers I should be looking at for:
    - The front swaybar bushings
    - The rear swaybar bushings
    - The front swaybar link bushings
    - The rear swaybar link bushings
    - The front A-arm bushings (and number required)
    - The rear A-arm bushings (and number required)

    4. Does ES make bushings for the shocks and if so what are the part numbers?

    Any information would be greatly appreciated.
     
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  3. seschroeder

    seschroeder Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2002
    251
    Alexandria, VA
    Full Name:
    Steve Schroeder
    Norwood's (FChat sponsor) is currently having a sale on the 30 mm bushings. 16 required to do the entire car. I'm not aware of polyurethane bushings for the shock eyes nor for the sway bar links. Ferrari UK does have the shock eye bushings - that is were I got mine. Koni shocks came from the Tire Rack. I plan to replace my sway bar links with teflon rod ends. ES make a number of different sized. greasable sway bar bushings. Easy - measure and order from Summit Racing/Whitney, or someone like that.
     
  4. stacy

    stacy Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
    104
    halifax
    Rob.

    I ordered some energy suspension graphite impregnated bushings from this place (www.suspension.com) the end of last week.

    They haven't arrived yet but they had the best prices I found, $15.00 US per bushing.

    The one you need (from my research) is the 30mm bushing 13-3101.
     
  5. adesalos

    adesalos Karting

    Mar 19, 2003
    233
    Texas
    A lot was written in the past 2 month about the subject. My experience is as follow:
    shocks: tire rack = cheapest OEM
    A-arm bushings = Stacy's recommandation (get the black graphite impregnated, not the show-off red ones)
    sway bar bushings = see Verell's older thread. ES is the was to go as well.
    shock bushing = KONI never provided these, and you will have to go to an OEM part.
    dirro for all the rear outer parts
    Dennis McCann or T Ruthlands are cheaper than dealer (or Ferrari UK for that matter, because of shipping, and currency), and are knowledgeable and reliable.

    Good luck. I should have my last batch of parts in the next few days, and then the hard part begins...
     
  6. Jax8308

    Jax8308 Rookie

    Nov 12, 2003
    9
    N.J.
    Full Name:
    Jack B.
    A little trick I learned from a Swiss racing team, is to use the shock bushings from a 400i in the 308's. The inner metal bushing is thicker and the rubber part is thinner. I compared them and they were right. Fits in without a problem.
     
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  8. skipgt4

    skipgt4 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    399
    GR Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles VDB
    Sorry for the dumb question, but what is the reason that the 400 part is better.
     
  9. Jax8308

    Jax8308 Rookie

    Nov 12, 2003
    9
    N.J.
    Full Name:
    Jack B.
    The inner metal bushing is larger, meaning the rubber surrounding it is smaller. Less flexing of the rubber. Not as good as polyurethane, but better than OEM.
     
  10. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    This is just the info I needed. One week ago, I bought a 77 GTB with 22k on the clock. The PO had it for 19 years. On the test drive and the 600 mile trip home, I listened to the shocks, bars and A arms knocking and clanking, so on my return home, I ordered the graphited poly bushings and the stock koni bushings.
    I plan to drive the car fairly hard through the mountains and hopefully track it a few times a year. Still have stock size h rated michelins on 7.5 inch stock rims and plan to go with 16 inch rims in the not to distant future.
    Should I run 0 front camber or a slight negative camber.
    If the caster is brought back from 4 degrees to maybe 3, will this significantly reduce the low speed steering effort?? (I suspect the 9 degree KPI is the major culprit here.) Would it have any adverse effects??
    How about toe?
    Any suggestions for the rear settings.
    As I will have the shocks off the car, I was considering disassembling the shock/spring, so I could check the condition of the konis.
    Is this a waste of time - do they last 27 years, (22k miles) without degredation?
    I had orriginally considered lower stiffer springs but after bottoming it out on speed bumps, (even creeping), and scraping the front on lightly inclined driveways, I have had second thoughts.
    If I go with the 8 x 16 inch repro wheels, (cannot afford the way cool 360 wheels), and use a 225/50w16 be about right? Would it be likely to clear.
    Slightly off topic - but I removed the air cleaner, (seriously packed) and took it for a 7700 rpm test drive --MAJOR grin still stuck on face. loving it.

    chris

    p.s. off to chat with the carb & exhaust guys.
     
  11. gary buff

    gary buff Rookie

    Dec 30, 2003
    1
    Sounds like you're getting it ready for Mosport......
     
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  13. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
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    chris morse
    Tell me when and how to get there.

    If she who must be obeyed will let my leash out a couple of notches - well maybe.

    What are the safety requirements for track events??

    thanks
    chris
     
  14. gerritv

    gerritv Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2001
    1,400
    St Catharines
    Full Name:
    Gerrit
    Chris, you had better hope that 'her inside' is not watching this board :)

    First local track day is May 26 at Mosport. FCA membership required, current spec helmet required. Inspection before hand is recommended, getting it done at the track takes time away from lapping etc.

    Gerrit
     
  15. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,687
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    Nuvolari-
    I did a write up of replacing my rear sway bar with pics and part #'s in the old Fchat:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/320732.html

    I have a 77 GTB so all the part numbers should be right for your car. I heard that the diameter of the sway bar is different for different years.

    I have heard that the "G" on the end of the Energy Suspension is for graphite impregnated. Indeed the stuff with a G at the end comes as black, not red in color, but I have no idea if there is actually graphite in it. You could call Energy Suspension and ask. They seem fairly helpful on the phone. (I called them to find my closest dealer). I ended up ordering from www.suspension.com. For what its worth I did my sway bar with red greasable fittings and it has been fine, makes no noise.

    The front and rear inner A arm bushings are 13-3101G. $15 each at suspension restoration (the link above).

    Picture here:

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10688

    ES does not make bushings for the shocks. They don't even make anything remotely CLOSE so that you could machine them to size. So many people have been asking about this that Verell and I considered going into business making polyurethane shock bushings! At present, the real Ferrari ones are your only option. (There doesn't even seem to be a rubber generic available).

    Birdman
     
  16. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Owner

    Sep 3, 2002
    5,382
    Toronto / SoCal
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    Rob C.
    Wow it seems as though this thread from last year has been pulled from the dead. I thank you all for the guidance. Lots of thread hunting and asking around has revealed the parts I need. I've already started ordering bits and will tackle the project in about a month (other commitments come first and today a whack of snow has fallen). I'll be sure to post some pics of the re-build when I am done. Thanks again.
     
  17. morcal

    morcal Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 7, 2003
    284
    Turin,Italy
    Full Name:
    Cal
    Chris,
    suggest taking of stock air filter and adding carbs intake horns. Great sound and nice push.
    Cal
     
  18. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
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    David Jones
    "suggest taking of stock air filter and adding carbs intake horns. Great sound and nice push."

    #1
    The 308 already has velocity stacks on the carbs.

    #2
    Unless you re-route fresh cool air to your carbs,
    you will be making less HP than the stock air-box.

    Not to be rude but, what does this have to do with rebuilding a 308 suspension?
     
  19. morcal

    morcal Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 7, 2003
    284
    Turin,Italy
    Full Name:
    Cal
    Dave,
    the comment on the carbs refers to the footnote on post nr 8 by Chris, sorry for mixing-up with your suspension topics.
    The positive effect of taking out the airbox comes just by the reduced intake losses due to the filtering element ,there is plenty of air feed coming into engine compartment. The sound improvement is considerable at all revs ( especially above 5500 RPM ), equivalent to a well tuned exhaust system.
    Just try it.
    Cal
     
  20. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones
    "The positive effect of taking out the airbox comes just by the reduced intake losses due to the filtering element ,there is plenty of air feed coming into engine compartment"

    Sorry Cal, but while you now have a wonderful roar from the carbs,
    You are now feeding them Hot dirty air rising from the engine and exhaust,
    rather than Cool dense fresh air being fed directly to them...

    The result = nice sound, less HP.
     
  21. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
    10,675
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    Steven
    WOW, this must really be 3x8 suspension time! GREAT thread and have ordered the "G" bushings and also the dual adjust shocks from Fchat sponsor Nick (http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com/forzaferrariwebsite1_005.htm) with 300 lbs. springs all around. Nick was great and we discussed going with 350 lbs. front, yet due to New England roads 300 lbs for front are probably best.

    Ok, so we have better dual adjustable shocks, uprated springs and 16 graphite bushings. Anything else?

    What is the ES part # for the sway bars for a Euro 1985 308GTS QV? How many do i need?

    Enjoy the Walk,

    Steven R. Rochlin
     
  22. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    6,993
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Steven,
    ES doesn't make a sway bushing just for Ferraris. They make a line of inch dimensioned sway bar bushings & the best fit is used.
    We need to know the diameter of your front & rear sway bars(QVs used a couple of different sizes.) Then we'll determine the closest undersize ES part & hone it to an exact fit.

    For the link bushings, we'll chuck the same ES one that we used for Jonathan's sway bar & bore/hone them to an exact fit.

    Sounds like a lot of work but it's only 20-30 mins on top of the basic time to R&R the sway bars.

    We can talk when I get back.

    Suggestively,
    Verell
     
  23. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,687
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    Steven,
    I can't emphasize enough that you get under your car and use a caliper or something to measure the actual diameter of the sway bars before ordering bushings. They used different sizes on different cars and you can be sure if you just take a guess, you will get the wrong size!! Let me know what you come up with and I'll tell you which bushing to order.

    Birdman
     
  24. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    The Q&D way to do this is to grab a handfull of wrenches, 13-22mm and see what fits best around the bar, (assuming it is fairly clean) - you never what some PO may have done.

    chris
     
  25. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    I purchased the Koni bushings from Dennis McCann Ferrari Parts for $20 each plus 23.13 s&h and if I can get some time this weekend after wrapping up the flowmaster project, I will try to get the klunking out of my suspension by attacking the shocks first - since they seem the worst - followed by some really raty sway bar buchings - littly joke, sorry.
    On a more earnest note, I would really appreciate some wise council about how to get those crusty old muthers out of my shocks.
    I read somewhere that you can burn them out with a torch, sounds rude. This may be ok with a truck shock or maybe a mother in law, but a Ferrari Koni - I don't think so.
    Being a semi impoverished car nut, I still do not have either a lift or a hydraulic press, unlike some chatters, (whose name begins with a V), so I am looking for a way to do this with some sockets and a serious vise, maybe a hammer, but that doesn't sound so good.

    Help

    chris
    '
     
  26. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    Hey steve,

    How much, shocks/springs??

    How much of an increase over stock pound/inch is this. I did notice that the front of my car seemed to exhibit a bit of unseamly float over bumps - I was horrified.
    guess when I do the shock bushings, I wil have to have the springs removed so I can check the effectiveness of the shocks - does anyone have a clue how to make a good assesment short of shiping them back to koni???
    I had to cross a freeway and railroad tracks quickly today and encountered the dreaded bottoming out - a pox on those engineers that cannot provide a smooth crossing!
    sorry, I digress again. It looks like I have 3 7/8 ft and 4 1/8 rear clearance from the road to the easly crushable lower body seam. Is this stock, or have one of the two POs or nature lowered the ride??
    One of the men I most greatly respect, Carroll Smith, once said, "There are no insignificant reductions of Center of Gravity", obviously, lower is better but we must drive on the streets, if I don't quit wandering, i may never get to retire this evenig.
    Anyway, what ride height are the springs designed to povide?? Stock??, +- an inch or what, measured as per the factory manual or how???
     
  27. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Chris / Birdman / Verell,

    Nick's shocks are $1500 for a set of four. They are basically Alden dual-adjustable and from what i can tell, they have 11 settings for rebound and 6 settings for compression. These are very good oil shocks for hot rodders and the like.

    Springs, i went with 300 lbs on both ends. Debated going 350 front, but then decided that may be a bit too stiff and another Fchatter has Nick's shocks with 300 all around and he tracks his car and says 300 all around works well for him. Stock for a 308GTS is 175 front and 186 rear (see http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/199158.html), so about 50% stiffer. Have been PMing folks and one gentleman has been going 400 back and 450 front (and modded sway bars) and says his ride is fine. Do not want to go TOO stiff here as she is mainly a daily driver with spirited driving.

    Verrel and Birdman, only ordered the 16 bushings and will let KTR get the sway bar bushings. So far they have not touched the car and am gathering all the info i can.

    MANY THANKS guys for ALL your help. It is GREATLY appreciated.

    Enjoy the Walk,

    Steven R. Rochlin
     
  28. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Birdman / Verell,

    FYI: Am having KTR do all the work. Am getting estimates on redoing the interior as well. Verell, truly appreciate your help and you are indeed a VERY talented man. Just that A LOT of work is going into her and may as well just leave her at KTR to do it all. Next oil change i KNOW where to go :)

    Enjoy the Drive,

    Steven R. Rochlin
     

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