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308 timing belt drive bearings - FIXED !

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by ham308, Apr 16, 2004.

  1. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    Just started up my 77 308 after having replaced all the timing belt drive bearings with the engine in the car and Taraaaaa, no bearing noise!

    This has been quite a job for me and I’ve got to know my Ferrari a lot better. Especially the inside of the right rear wheel arch (almost like home in there, I shall probably miss it ) and the inside of the sump, (not so pleasant)

    Said it before, but this is a great site. Thanks to Rob Lay for organising it, to you lot who contribute to it, and in particular to Verell Boaen and Robert Garven for the original posts on this job. Without this site and the original posts I wouldn’t have dreamt the fix was possible.

    It might be obvious that I’m slightly chuffed. The alternative to doing this job in-situ is either to take the engine out which I just wouldn’t want to do for a couple of $5 bearings or spend ~$8000 at a garage.

    Finally I guess if the interest is there, an account of the job would be in order. I've certainly got a lot of pictures.
     
  2. WaltP

    WaltP Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2003
    1,463
    Cape Canaveral/Atlanta
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    Walt P
    I would like the see the pictures, I may have to do this one day. Thanks!
     
  3. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Sep 30, 2003
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    Savannah
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    I NEED A JOB
    please post more pics, i am looking 2 cars ( 308, 328) and would love some insight before i spend the $$$$$$. yes i am scared, but in a good way!!!
     
  4. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    10,167
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    I am very impressed with anyone who can do this insitu.
     
  5. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    6,992
    Groton, MA
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    Verell Boaen
    Great News!!! I new you could do it!!!!

    Know just how you felt when it fired up & ran for the 1st time after that project!

    If you write this up, please post it to this thread, thus minimizing the amount of threads a future reader will have to search for to find everything about your project. (Hint,hint to other posters as well.)

    BTW, your $$ estimate may be a tad low. When I was in Boston SportsCar with Birdman picking up his 308 last summer, they were finishing up an insitu timing bearing job on a 328. Told me that the bearing job, & new belts plus a fuel filter & accumulator replacement was going to run about $14K!
     
  6. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    2,279
    Roseburg, OR
    Full Name:
    Hans E. Hansen
    Hmmmm......

    I got all front engine seals and drive bearings AND a 30K service (belts, valve adjust, etc.) for about $3500, incl parts at my Portland mechanic. 40 years F-car experience, the guy's an absolute encyclopedia of mechanical trivia.

    He does an amazing amount of major engine work with the block in place. But sometimes it just gotta come out.......
     
  7. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    369
    Colorado Springs
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Mine are bad too; debating spending $2500 to get them fixed or just dump the car as is...(see my ad in FerrariAds)

    My 1 car garage in condo complex rules out doing it myself, unless I can rent a warehouse or hangar.....
     
  8. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Steven
    $14-friggen-k? YIPES!!!!!!!!! KTR did all that and MUCH more on the 308 for MUCH less. BTW, picking up the car next week to do the new seats/harness.
     
  9. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Steven
    Congrats! Nothing says lovin' like new bearings :)
     
  10. Mark 328

    Mark 328 Formula Junior

    Nov 6, 2003
    510
    Orange, Ca
    Full Name:
    Mark Foley
    MarkG:
    You might have to store some of the removed parts in the kitchen! but I'm sure you could do it in a one car garage. It is a good "bonding" experience.

    Mark F
     
  11. tf308

    tf308 Formula 3
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    Dec 14, 2003
    1,122
    Virginia Beach
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    Tim
    Careful with the cost estimates. Some people charge alot less, but only replace the outer drive bearings. This is alot easier to do and would lower the cost. It is a different story when you replace the inner ones like he has done.

    Just a thought.
     
  12. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    Groton, MA
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    Verell Boaen
    Steven,
    Are you sure KTR did the timing drive bearings? I thought they just did seals & the major.
     
  13. ShanB

    ShanB Formula Junior

    Jul 9, 2003
    547
    Tejas/Europe/Desert
    Full Name:
    shanb
    Awesome job! I agree working on your own car forces you to know the car better and takes away much of the mystery and fear that surrounds the mechanicals. Also a great excuse to buy some nice tools (at least that was my excuse) Great machines but not rocket science when it comes down to it, right? Thanks fior sharing. Got more pics??

    Congratulations on a job well done!!
     
  14. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    369
    Colorado Springs
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    Mark
    My $2500 +/- rough estimate came from Dave Helms, labor only est., complete job i.e. timing cover comes off, if I do some of tear down first (remove A/C, belt covers etc.) and no unforseen issues (frozen studs, etc).

    He did advise using only OEM Ferrari boxed belts and tensioners which will add a bit to the cost, but worth it for the factory warranty.
     
  15. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
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    Phil Hughes
    Excellent effort to do that job in situ.......but, (and I'm sure there are exceptions), I've never seen a truly faulty "inner" bearing yet (from about 100 different cars/engines serviced)...and the outer bearings and oil seals can be changed with a special bearing puller. It only adds about 3-4 hours to a belt change.

    How long did you spend doing it?

    By the way, did you know that the QV engine had an upgrade during it's life. From a certain engine number, both inner and outer bearings were made larger with different seal arrangement too.
     
  16. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Veteran
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    Apr 13, 2004
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    Johnny
    I know Id like to see the pictures of the job!! :D
     
  17. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    Thanks for the positive feed-back.

    I'll try and make a proper job of reporting it so it might take some time. Got to go and drive it first :)

    here's a picture of the garage anyway.

    Keep telling my wife I need a bigger box for my broken toys.
     
  18. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    Phil Hughes
    Why are your brake lights and indicators swapped into each others places??
     
  19. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    How can you tell when they are going? Do you feel play in the timing belts or is it a noticeable noise?
     
  20. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Verell,

    i'll ask again to be sure, yet yes he mentioned changing those bearings too (remember the pic you saw at my place taken during the service that looked JUST LIKE the one at the top of this thread). i recall even you were amazed he changed those. i was being "retentitive" and wanted a THORORUGH service because there are no plans to EVER sell her.
     
  21. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    369
    Colorado Springs
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    Mark
    Re Symptoms: in my case a noise was comming from the general area of the t/belt cover. Strange noise, scary sounding. I took a mechanic's stethoscope and water pump, main pulley, tensioner bearings and a/c pulley were all dead quiet. Placing the stetho. on the timing belt cover indicated something going on in there.

    Removed rear wheel and cover, and one of the pulleys has a slight but noticable wobble to it (lower left pulley).

    Car runs great but I would not drive it as is across the parking lot just to play it safe. If I can find a decent garage/warehouse/hanger to rent I am very tempted to do it myself; barring that either Dave Helms gets the job or someone gets a nice GTSi for way below value........
     
  22. robertgarven

    robertgarven F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Feb 24, 2002
    5,082
    Ventura, California
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    Robert Garven
    Phil is the expert on this thread! but Thanks for the acknowledgement, although I am sure i contibutrd little. I did this twice in one month (dont ask) Glad everything is in order. I have heard the inner bearings fail rarely but you did right and learned alot , to be sure!!!
     
  23. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    Right here’s my mammoth post for changing the cam drive bearings in the car. This has been posted before with excellent threads by Verell and Robert Garven on the old site (http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/21198.html ), but it doesn’t seem to be that common. So here’s my experience for what it’s worth.

    I’d like to say that there is no way in the world I would have attempted this without having knowledge gained from this site. So it’s nice to be able to give something back.

    Apologies that the post is so long. Probably better just to flick through the pictures J

    SYMPTOMS – in my case a noise like an alternator bearing going, with a distinct rattle at around 2100 rpm which was noticed even by passengers. Having changed the alternator, run it without the AC and alternator belts, and using a bit of plastic hose as a stethoscope, I narrowed it down to these drive bearings.

    Another symptom can be an oil leak from the shaft. In fact, as it was the front bearings that had gone on mine, oil was thrown onto the alternator, which probably stopped it charging in the first place.

    I also found that one of the belts was running to the outside of the drive pulley. There’s a lip on the outer edge of the pulleys which you can get your fingers onto with only the wheel arch cladding removed. The front belt on mine was definitely trying to climb over this. (Really gave me the willies, as I’d recently had a flat-out sprint on a German Autobahn with a group of other Ferrari’s).
     
  24. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    DESIGN – There is an earlier design (pre-78?) which I have, where the seal is on the outside. This puts a higher load on both bearings, but does have the advantage that they are running in oil. I guess in an effort to reduce the load on the bearings, Ferrari moved the outer bearing to outside of the seal and used a sealed bearing instead. This is exposed to the road dirt however and very high temperatures right over the exhaust. Either way they don’t seem to last for ever. Changing and re-tensioning the belts probably speeds things up as well.

    As an aside, looking at the lever-arm lengths you can estimate that if the belt load is 100 (bananas), then the inner / outer bearing load is 100 / 200 with the old design and 50 / 150 with the newer design, (so a big improvement).
     
  25. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    CHANGE JUST THE OUTER BEARING? – with the later design I would imagine there’s a good chance that only the outer bearing will fail and this can be changed (destructively) from the outside. While it’s better to change all the bearings, I would gladly have changed just the outer one. Didn’t have the choice though.

    ENGINE OUT OR NOT – Garages seem to take the engine out for this. I haven’t got the room or the kit to do this and was quoted over $8000 by a garage. It is possible with the engine in the car and, if this is all you have to do, then it’s got to be easier than taking the engine out.
     

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