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308 V12 conversion begins

Discussion in '308/328' started by mk e, Oct 9, 2007.

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  1. tknobby

    tknobby Rookie

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    #2851 tknobby, Nov 11, 2009
    Really awesome looking Mark. This thread is a real pleasure.

    Tom...
     
  2. Conquest351

    Conquest351 Karting

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    #2852 Conquest351, Nov 11, 2009
    Fingers crossed everything works out with the Cam Guy!!

    I'm glad we finally got back to some welding and fabrication in this thread. It was getting boring...


    JK

    Love the thread, this is the first one I check every morning. Keep up the fantastic work!!!!
     
  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2853 mk e, Nov 11, 2009
    Cam guy just shot me an email saying he’s sorry and will have the box ready….hopefully that’s what happens and the cams are at web by the end of the week.

    Things were getting boring without any cutting and welding happening. I hoping to make some serious progress in the coming months. It looks like 3-4 more weeks on exhaust at the current rate then I go back to intake ports and finish up the heads. I’m thinking at least 2 months on the heads…..which probably means 4.
     
  4. brian.g

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    #2854 brian.g, Nov 11, 2009
    On a side note, back in the early days when I had a scratch start I used to get good results when a carbon brush from a motor was placed beside what I was welding, I used to start the arc on the brush to get things heated up, then move onto work piece. That way the tungsten wont get contaminated as it would if you scratch start on work piece. May come in handy to someone someday...

    Ill stop pulling the thread off course now!!
     
  5. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #2855 ernie, Nov 11, 2009
    Coming along nicely Mark, and thanks for keeping the pics coming.
     
  6. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #2856 PSk, Nov 11, 2009
    Hmmm, will be interesting to see how you get the furthest most cylinder's pipe to reach the the 2 into 1 collector ... that is a long motor and you have reasonably short headers due to expected rev range. I see a very tight 180 bend straight after 3 into 1 maybe ...

    I guess you could alter your 2 into 1 so that the top pipe comes in from another angle ... I'll watch with interest :).

    Best
    Pete
     
  7. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2857 mk e, Nov 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You're right and I bought a specail 180 just for the job and I think it will work out.

    I tried building this collector a little different and it seemed to go fine....as long as I can get in to weld everything. It ends up the same as the first one but it seems easier this way.
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  8. vincent355

    vincent355 F1 Veteran
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    #2858 vincent355, Nov 11, 2009
    Looking good!

    thanks for the pics and updates.
     
  9. KKRace

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    #2859 KKRace, Nov 12, 2009
    What's the measurement trick to getting the pipes the same length and what is a reasonable tolerence? Seems like they would be hard to measure with all the bends? I guess using a length of that foam and seeing how far into the pipes it goes would get a close measurement?
     
  10. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2860 mk e, Nov 12, 2009
    I’m using the piece of hose you see in some of the pics. It’s cut to the primary tube length spec and I play with the tubes until the hose is about flush on both ends. You could also measure each piece of tubing along the centerline and mark the length on the tube then add then up. A foam noodle is pretty stretchy so I don’t think it would work very well for measuring.

    For the tolerance I think +/- ½” is fine but others may have a different opinion.
     
  11. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    #2861 Artvonne, Nov 12, 2009
    About equal lengths. Something that perplexes me with headers and all the equal length discussions, is how bends effect flow vs straight pipe. In other practices, HVAC for example, short bends are considered the same as a longer length of straight section. IOW, and for example, when hooking up a gas water heater with a power vent, a short 90 degree radius bend was trated equal to 4 feet of pipe, and had to be calculated into the total maximum length of pipe as the max length could only 28 feet. A bunch of bends would eat up your length.

    Why wouldnt the same effect be an issue in an exhaust header? A 4 foot pipe full of twists and bends would have more resistance to flow than a 4 foot straight section. Or is it that the important article were looking for is the sonic wave pulse, and turns have no effect on that pulse?
     
  12. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2862 mk e, Nov 12, 2009
    In HVAC type stuff the bend math you are looking at equivalent pressure drop. This is very important in fan based flow because fans can’t generate much pressure and flow rate drops rapidly as system pressure goes up.

    With headers pressure drop matters, but it maters a lot less than pulse velocity and timing so physical length is the driver.
     
  13. ramosel

    ramosel Formula 3

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    #2863 ramosel, Nov 12, 2009
    Mark,
    I've not delved into the firing order on that motor, do you have 240 degree separation of pulses on each set of 3 or is the flat crank balance only applied to the bank of six collectively?

    Just curious?

    Rick
     
  14. KKRace

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    #2864 KKRace, Nov 12, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2009
    Are you using the flux and if so how do you like it, and what is the method of using it? Do you make a thick paste and have to seal the joint from the back side or just put some near the joint you are welding? And how do you like the green filters for welding the stainless?
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2865 mk e, Nov 12, 2009
    Yes, each group of 3 has 240 degree separation (only a 4cyl or 8 would have a "flat" crank becasue the rotation angle is 180)

    This firing order question is what started the whole billet cam project as the 400i crack starts at one the rotates 120 CW to #2…the TR crank was ccw 9or the other way around) so the TR cams didn’t match the 400 crank. I have no idea why they made the change but it meant I couldn’t use the stock TR cams…which of course lead to “well if I’m making custom cams anyway….” disease.
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2866 mk e, Nov 12, 2009
    I have been using the flux and it’s ok….a purge is better I think but the flux is WAY better than nothing. I don’t seem to be able to get eh back side (fluxed side) of the weld to burn in like it would with a purge but it doesn’t sugar up so that something. You don’t have to seal anything, just paint it on and it seems to be there forever or until you brush/sand it off. When I try to go back and weld the inside it doesn’t want to weld…the flux doesn’t seem like flux, it seems like a coating that doesn’t burn off and just keeps the air off the hot metal.

    The only thing I noticed about the green filter is that 8 is not really dark enough for what I’m doing. I found my gold #9….it was in the helmet. The reason I couldn’t see is because the heat from welding the block browed the clear plastic lens that sits in front of the gold lens. I need some new clear lenses, a new 12 or 13 I guess….but I’ll wait for the electric helmet to get here and see how I like that first. My helmet has a 4”x4 lens so a 1.5x4 may take some getting used to.
     
  17. KKRace

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    #2867 KKRace, Nov 12, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2009
    I found the website for the flux and they suggest keeping it around a 1/4" away from the weld on each side. Does it seem to spread once you heat it? They actually list a number of brands of drygas manufactures that just have staight methanol in the bottles. 'HEET', 'ORIGINAL DRYGAS', 'MASTER', AND 'GOLD EAGLE' are listed as just being straight methanol. http://www.solarflux.com/Pages/Howtouse.html
     
  18. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2868 mk e, Nov 12, 2009
    I would know so much more if I read directions

    HEET is what I bought.

    The flux does not flow in anyway…it’s like gray clay, dusty when dry and it just sits there and seems to look about the same after welding as before.
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2869 mk e, Nov 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Not a lot to see tonight.

    I tried to get a sot of the inside of a weld when flux is used. I used a little more tonight than I had been and it seemed to work better.

    I welded up the second collector....and had to cut the center points out. I'll weld them on the header like I did with the first one. I also put slip fits on the merge collector. I haver a little more cleaning up to next time in the shop then on to header #2.
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  20. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #2870 ernie, Nov 12, 2009
    This is gonna be so badass when you are done.
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2871 mk e, Nov 13, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
    It seems even FedEx doesn’t want me to get my cams done.

    It seems that going online and obtaining a prepaid shipping label and scheduling a pickup doesn’t cause them to take any action what so ever until you call them to arrange payment and schedule a pickup. Apparently the online system is effectively for amusement purposes only yet customer service girl didn’t seem to understand way I was upset. Absolutely bizarre. I send them a very agree note......
     
  22. Pizzaman Chris

    Pizzaman Chris F1 Rookie

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    #2872 Pizzaman Chris, Nov 13, 2009

    If you have a account and they have a credit card on file, i don't see what the problem is.

    I always have some kind of problem with them too. And it would always fall on a Friday. AAARGH!
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2873 mk e, Nov 13, 2009
    I have an account but I didn’t have the number handy, so I did a “one time credit card shipment” which is apparently where the problem came from…..because the system send you though all the same steps and pages that the account hold sees but nothing happens. I know they ran the card to be sure it was valid so I didn’t understand the problem either. Customer service girl ask didn’t do anything to help calm me when she told me she couldn’t schedule it for today even though it’s really their fault and I called at 7am EST time meaning it’s 4AM in CA and the truck will still be in the garage for 3- 4 more hours and they don’t do pick up until the afternoon anyway giving them 8+ hours to fix their problem. I’m not happy with them at the moment.
     
  24. MrForce

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    #2874 MrForce, Nov 13, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2875 mk e, Nov 13, 2009
    Is that out yet? I can't find any more info or a price. I would need 2 it looks like and I'd like to see what all else it does.
     
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