308 V12 conversion begins

You know....I asked for TR heads thinking 512TR and ASSUMED that's what I bought.....I should have asked the year I need to get that answer. I don't think it really matters too much if I'm going to port and do cams anyway, but it would be good to know.

Edit: Are there even any differences you know of? The hp bump in the 2 model looks simple what you'd expect by replacing the CIS with EFI?

 

The way the manifold is built it looks very much like it was built to have a couple turbos on it and the billet block also makes me think massive boost application. Everything is too small on the intake for natural aspiration, I think the plan was boost and it's small to reduce system volume, which would improve throttle response. It needs a new intake system at least and probably porting to run naturally aspirated and make hp.

 

You get about 30hp on a 308QV swaping out the CIS for EFI, so 40 on a 512 seems about right.

What's different internally on the engines? Nikocyl (sp?)vs iron liners??

 

The CR change is consistant with what ferrari did going from the CIS 328 to the EFI 348, so that makes sense. I wonder if they added more cam too like the 328/348 change?? more research required I guess. Thanks for the heads up John.

 

a search turned up this short thread, which I think answers the questions
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106712

It seems there are quite a few changed 512TR vs testarossa, the key ones for me being the 512TR got
Nikasil
Larger intake valves
Different cams, buckets, springs
Different head gasket to accommodate revised head coolant circulation.

The heads I bought are ’89, so testarossa and probably the better choice in that they were on an engine with iron liners, so I’m thinking there’s a better chance of coolant/oil passages being in the right places…..maybe.

To make the hp numbers I’d like to make will mean the making peak power up around 7500-8000 and that will require reworking the ports, fitting larger intake valves, and probably higher lift cams regardless or which set of heads I started with so none of the 512TR improvements would still be there after the rework anyway. I’m guessing the 512TR heads/cams are probably very similar to 348 because 300hp from 3.4 liters is 88hp/l, just like the 512TR which are very minor changes front he QV/328 engines and nothing to worry about…..see how I convince myself I did the right thing even though I didn’t mean to

Hopefully tonight I won’t find anything else on the shelves to ebay (I don’t see you guys bidding by the way, except Verell that is ) and I can get to actual work on this. The first thing I need to do is get my trans cleaned up and throw it up on the milling machine so I can use the digital read out to map the bolt patter, which I’ll need to design and make the adapter to mount the 400 engine on the trans. I’ll post some pics when I get rolling.

 

One think that REALLY bothered me with supercharged 3.0 engine was the gear ratios….it made so much power/torque that first gear was only good for idling around the parking lot, so I rarely used it making the car effectively a 4 speed. And in 5th gear the engine is reving way more than it needs to be on the highway. I expect the 12 to have very similar torque to the supercharged 8 and a little more hp, so I really want to address this problem

There are racing kits to alter the final drive ratio, but they are straight cut gears, so loud, I don’t want that. One place said they could make a set of helical gears, but it was $5k for 1 ratio if I remember right, way out of my budget. The other problem is those kits make the drop gear case about an inch wider and I’m going to need to move that case over as far as possible to fit the 12, so I think that is just not an option.

I think that if I take the existing gears and cut a new larger hub into then, I could make new center hub for them that would let me put the trans gear up on the clutch and the clutch gear on the trans. That would change the final drive ratio by 23% and get me pretty close to where I think I want to be. Of course I’d also need to move the idler center, but I don’t think that would be to hard. If I ever get this conversion to a “kit” stage, it would be easy to do the basic which leaves the drive ratio alone and only means messing with 1 gear or the deluxe that messes with everything in the drop gear case.

Anyway, I’ll need to get all the casting in the milling machine to amp them so I can make CAD models it looks like….busy, busy, busy……

 

Will,
Has the engine run and dyno'd yet?

Alternatively, would it be possible to get the actual flow numbers or at least the peak flow number and test pressure?

 

Will,
You've probably seen this, but Carobu did a 412 and were happy to see 406Hp at 6400 rpm. That is with webers, so I'd guess 430 or so with EFI. Looking at the dyno graph, the engine is very clearly flow limited, which could be heads, carbs, cams, exhaust. The exhaust looks about right, the carbs are a part of the problem I'm sure, The cams are about as big as I'd go on a street engine...maybe another 5 degrees.

The heads though....the right flow for an engine that size with a 7700 redline is about 120-130 cfm at 10" water, or 205-220 at 28" water, if the heads hit these numbers, the engine with the cam it has would be making about 500-550 hp at 7200-7500 I think.

http://www.carobu.com/html/ferrari_365_c_4.html
They ported the heads and got them up to 13%....to not quite as good as stock 308QV heads. This build is really the main source of my concern. Do you know of a 400/412 engine that been dyno'd and made up it the 500s?

Mark

 

Sweet!

 

My plan was to try and use the chain just so I don't need to worry about belts anymore....but the idea of ditching the timing cover is pretty good. When everything gets here I'll have to see if there is anyway to do that....I'm thinking the pulleys on the heads/pulleys may stick out too far to make that possible, but it's sure worth taking a look at.

You are telling me stuff I didn't know for sure, .....I like to use the ignorance is bliss school of thought at the start of a project, it's the only way I would ever start anything and I was still hoping the heads would just drop on. If it turns out to be just the oil returns though, that shouldn’t be too bad. The easiest thing would be to tap the head and run external lines I guess, or if the 400 block is anything like the 308 block, adding new lugs to the block and closing the old ones looks pretty easy too, I’ve got plenty of welding rod

 

Tonight I got going on some actual work on project. First up was measuring where the crank is relative to the flange so I’ll know how think to make the adapter.

Next was to get the trans cleaned up a little and up on the mill, I’ll map it out tomorrow.

Then there was looking at the oil return lugs to see how they’re made because James scared me a little…..but it doesn’t look too bad. The ribs inside the block are the same at each stud and just a little tube looking thing on the outside that would be pretty easy to weld on so no worries.

Progress!
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yeah, but it's already got 18s

 

I paid for the 400i engine today, so it should be here in a week or so and then we'll finally know if it fits!

Actually, now that the QV engine is parted out, I know the 400 engine fits....one way or the other, it's going in the car if I ever want to drive it again

The TR heads are due tomorrow. When they get here I'll make up a rough CAD model of them so I can design intake/exhaust system and have the specs to start sorting out the timing belt/chain and water/oil passage issues.

I still need to model the bell housing, drop gear cover, and trans/engine end cover…..I’m just getting started and already a week behind schedule…..

I did throw the trans back in the car and measure a bit. It looks like it is possible to put the v12 centerline in the same place the v8's was and still have about 1-1.5" clearance between the drop gear cover and the inside of my 10.5" wide rear wheels. So that's good. I may not move it over that far, but I would like too and at least now I know I can. With that piece of information I'm 3/4 thinking the easiest thing to do is make up a new input shaft for the trans instead of trying to extend the original somehow like the goldsmith conversion did......we'll see.