308 + White Smoke + Oil in Coolant | FerrariChat

308 + White Smoke + Oil in Coolant

Discussion in '308/328' started by chipkent, Oct 11, 2009.

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  1. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I've just brought a 308 GTSi back to life after 7 years of sitting. I've put about 20 miles on it since it was revived. During that time, it has developed a heavy white smoke at startup plus a burping in the coolant overflow tank. I just checked, and there is a layer of oil in the coolant.

    This seems to have all the classic signs of a head gasket problem. How likely is this an actual head gasket problem vs. the head working its way loose? I know the PO left the car outside for at least two Minnesota winters and summers (-25F to 95F), but I suspect it may have been in an unheated garage for other winters. If anything would work the head loose, I suspect these temperature swings would. How likely is this a cracked head on this engine?

    I do all my own work. Before digging into this repair, I want to quantify how much labor and parts to expect. If it is too much of a PITA, I may decide to sell this car and pick up another project.

    Am I correct in assuming that the engine will have to come out to pull the heads? How long and how difficult is this? If I have to pull the engine, what other maintenance should I do while it is out? What should I expect to pay for parts for changing out the head gaskets plus any other suggested maintenance?

    I have a major case of shipwrights disease so I have to be careful when I embark on projects like this, or I'll completely redo the entire car while I'm at it. Sometimes this is a good idea, and other times it is not.
     
  2. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
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    Tim Keseluk
    #2 2NA, Oct 11, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
    Was this the car that was on Craigslist here a couple of months ago? There has been some discussion here about one. Where are you located?

    Your problem could have a few possible causes.

    Failed head gasket

    Cracked head

    Cracked cylinder liner

    Just to name the most likely.

    The first thing to check would be to pressure test the cooling system and try to determine where the leak is. A cylinder leakdown test might show bubbles in the coolant header tank from the affected cylinder/s.

    The rear head might be removable "in the car", the front one is not.

    The heads on these engines (especially an older, probably unloved specimen) can be a real sonofa***** to get off and some guys have fabricated pullers for the job. Even then it ain't easy.

    If you decide to "dig in" keep in mind that it isn't a Chevy and that just the gaskets will cost as much as what you'd spend to build a 350 small block. Check Ricambi's site for some prices. There are too many variables to quote a total number but it will probably cost thousands of $ even if you do it yourself and know what you're doing.

    Good Luck, keep us posted.
     
  3. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    This may just be the craigslist car from a few months ago that you mention. I bought the car off of craigslist a few months ago. I'm in Plymouth, MN, and I see that you are in the area.

    A pressure test to localize the problem is a good idea. I'll have to pick up the tool to do it.
     
  4. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I expected the relevant parts to cost $1-3k... which is in the ballpark of what the 455 I had rebuilt cost. I'm sure costs will be more if the head is cracked. Looking on Ricambi, it lists a head gasket as $709. Any idea if this is each side or for a pair?
     
  5. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2006
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    Mike
    Ok so you confirmed the oil inside the coolant, I'm just curious if if the water is getting in the oil. Remove the oil cap and see if it has the creamy like color.
     
  6. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I checked the dipstick when I was looking at the car. There was no sign of water in the oil.

    Does this provide any insight into which of the possible problems exists?
     
  7. fgcfire8

    fgcfire8 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2008
    459
    Montpelier Va
    Full Name:
    Frank Castelvecchi
    likely a head gasket but as said above could be cracked head/cyl liner
    Simple compression test might show which cylinder the problem is in.
     
  8. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Jack Verschuur
    I'd wager gasket or head. A cracked liner would show coolant in the oil rather than vice versa.
    If the car sat in freezing temps I hope the anti-freeze was up to spec.
     
  9. bert308

    bert308 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
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    Roermond Netherlands
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    Bert Kanters
  10. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    If the head is cracked, am I better off getting it welded, getting a used one, or paying out for new one? I don't know how repairable this particular head is.

    The gasket on the last link is much cheaper than Ricambi. Does it meet the same spec? Have people had good luck with product from the company?
     
  11. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2008
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    Steven
    living in Europe i order all my stuff at Superperformance. Never had an unsoved issue.
    Never waited for more than a couple of days for delivery.
    On quality; they do deliver too! ( headgasket = elring = one of the best available brands)
    On price: they seldom can be beaten.
     
  12. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Dec 29, 2006
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    Tim Keseluk
    You can't answer that question until it's off the car but it can likely be fixed. Call me when you get that far.
     
  13. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    To my knowledge there is only one manufacture in the world making head gaskets for 308's, Elring. Never heard any complaints against Superformance.

    Could simply be a loose bunch of head studs. Probably too late now to try re-torquing them, but doubtful the heads cracked. Its possible but not common. Wont know till you pull it off. When the head comes off you will plainly see if the gasket is blown or not. Though that in itself is not any indication the gasket wasn't leaking if the studs were loose.

    Pull the plugs, they should tell you which cylinders are getting wet. You don't need to pull both heads, just the one that's leaking.
     
  14. M.James

    M.James F1 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2003
    2,721
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    Michael.C.James
    Being in a similar boat, I had an excellent mechanic (FastRadio) do a leakdown test on my engine as well as have my engine oil sent out for analysis (Blackstone Labs, they offer engine oil analysis kits online).

    Another test is to have a 4-Gas analyzer probe placed inside your coolant expansion tank while the engine is running - look at the PPM of the CO2 levels (after you've zeroized the meter), if you're over 50-75 (and climbing) then you have combustion gases bubbling-through your coolant. That all points to a blown head gasket (mine were over 100, btw).

    My car sat for a long, LONG time as yours did so this isn't anything 'new' apparently. If you appear to have a head gasket compromise, I would re-torque the head bolts immediately. You may catch it in time, and not have to pull the heads outright.
     
  15. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    It is going to be a week or two before I can do any tests or retorque the heads. I'm scrambling to improve the insulation in my garage before what looks like a bad winter gets here.

    From reading other threads, it looks like it takes 10 hours to 3 days to pull the engine. Is this a fair range?

    What fraction of the time are the heads tough to get off on these cars that have been sitting around for a long time? 90%? 5%? I've got the equipment to make a puller, but that would just be another thing to suck up time.

    I'm trying to make a list of the minimum things I'd do if I had to pull the engine out. So far, I have:
    - head gasket
    - water pump
    - cam belts
    - outer cam bearings
    - alternator/air cond belts
    - coolant hoses
    - plug air injection ports
    - detail engine

    Are there any obvious things I'm leaving off the list?

    The car hasn't been super crisp to shift. I don't know if this can be solved by adjusting the linkage or if it is a synchronizer problem. If it is the synchronizers, how difficult is it to replace them? Where is the best place to buy the parts? How much time and kilo$ should I expect this to put me back?
     
  16. M.James

    M.James F1 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2003
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    Michael.C.James
    You can re-torque the heads with the engine in-place. Just pull the Cam Covers off and obtain the special 'Head Bolt Wrench' that fits over the exposed nuts in the recesses of the block. I believe Ted Rutlands will allow you to rent the wrench from them. If you have the time, I'd go that route FIRST. If the heads re-torque, and the head gasket seals back up, then you're home free and you don't have to pull the engine at all.

    If re-torquing the heads doesn't work, then you're screwed - motor must come out. PM Fastradio.....
     
  17. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    Thanks for the heads up. I didn't know there was a special wrench!
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    No special wrench needed for the 2-valve heads (it's needed for the 4-valve heads).
     
  19. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    OK. I've got 2V.
     
  20. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

    Mar 26, 2003
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    Andy
    Early to think about pulling the engine isn't it? Inspection of the plugs, a leakdown test, etc, should help point out where the problem is. If the rear-most bank has a headgasket or head issue, couldn't this be fixed without pulling the engine? Once the engine is out, the expense of the repair skyrockets with all the "this is a good time to replace ..." decisions that will follow.
     
  21. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    The motor does not have to be removed to pull either head. The rear one's quite easy, the front one you have to slide the motor back to gain clearance. Not as easy as the front, but doable in the car, just be careful, use common sense, and think.

    With further thought, I would be a bit leery of re-torquing the head after its already blowing coolant. If the gasket eroded in the leak area, clamping pressures could warp or crack the head as it sinks into the lower area. Better just to pull the head and assess the damage.

    I believe in most cases the heads come right off and no one ever hears a word about it. Its the horror stories that gain attention. Try pulling it, if it wont come off, then think about pulling the engine.
     
  22. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I agree 100%. Since I can't get to the car for a couple of weeks, I'm just trying to figure out how painful it will be if I do have to pull the engine. I recently bought a bore scope so I should be able to get a good look around in addition to the various tests once I get some free time.
     
  23. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    There are really only two major concerns, IMHO. Getting the deck lid off without any damage, and NOT breaking the rear glass (very $$$$), or damaging anything else that's $$$$ lifting the engine in or out. A 3/8 inch piece of plywood will slip into the drain trough behind the rear glass and with a towel over it to protect the paint on the roof, can be used as protection against the the engine mashing the rear of the car. Just make sure to tell anyone helping you that anything that touches anything else = BAD, and is very $$$$$$$$$$.
     
  24. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Apr 26, 2006
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    I've done the front one in the car...Never again!

    Candidly, for the effort required and with a quality job in mind, it's just not worth it. Furthermore, on a QV, if the heads are stuck to the studs, the engine's coming out as there's just no room for any leverage.

    For the extra hour or two, after you've "slid the engine" back, you can get her out of the car...and do a perfect job and deal with all of the other engine "issues", with ease.

    Neither head is easy if corrosion has set in on the studs...2V or 4V.

    David
     
  25. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    I agree with all of that, no argument. Just stating that it can be done in the car. I also feel it depends on the particular year, how much emission stuff is on it, if the headers are still wrapped, etc..

    If your planning to do drive bearings along with a full service, and you have a blown head gasket to top it off, pulling the whole lump really does make good economic sense.

    If you really want to experience true masochism, try removing the front header from an early carbed GTB from underneath without pulling the fuel tank. I mean I pulled it out through the frame and put in a different one. Wouldn't have ever happened if it was wrapped, and I wont do that again either. Well, maybe if someone paid me a LOT of money. Pulling the front head in the car wouldn't scare me any, but not if I had all the rest to do, too.
     

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