308 x 328 x Mondial values...explain!

THere is no real difference between the 3x8 series and virtually any other mass produced car - a newer car is worth more than an older car - that's pretty much it and that's why (assuming no huge mileage issues - very high or very low) a Red/tan '89 328 in good condition sells for more than an '88, 87, or 86 Red/tan 328, which sells for more than a red/tan '85 or earlier 308. The Mondial it simply is less popular than the 3x8 so the prices are lower.

One can certainly find a buyer who is willing to pay an absurd price for, say, a green '84 Mondial for some personal reason but that sort of thing unusual and does not reflect the normal car market.

I haven't been around these cars for all that long - a little over a year - but it looks like the same dynamic that drives any used car purchase.

 

Not me! What is going here does not neccessary really reflect the majority of Ferrari owners out there.

 

I agree, however with this caveat. These cars are starting to come of the age were these rules are no longer going to applicable. Once a car a model reaches 'classic' status certain models of cars seem to rise over others of the same make. I agree with the statement that 308s look better than 328s. Why? Because the 308, with its uncluttered lines, speak of a different vintage ('70s), than the 328s with clipped lines and all the add on bits that scream the 1980s. It is all cyclical, and soon '70s era sports cars are going to be in vogue. We will have to wait another ten years for the 80s era vehicles to become popular again. It is for this reason why I believe that 308 and 328 values will start to even out over the next ten years.

 

Speaking from past experience, the 2V is less reliable than the QV, and when you factor in the better performance, that's your $10K difference right there.

 

It comes down to reputations, and people who can't think for themselves. Stories are told, and they grow, even when times change and they are no longer relevant.

Fiberglass 308s, despite being far from the rarest variant (consider 2-liter cars, GTBis, and U.S. model QV Bs), are repeatedly called the "rarest" . . . and people gobble that up. Their fiberglass construction was not looked so highly upon in their day, and your typical Ferrari buyer considers fiberglass cars "cheap" or "chintzy", but the 308 is the exception, perhaps because it is the oldest/earliest, the perception of lightness (sorry, it's not a Lotus), and of course "rare" (700+ is not rare in the Ferrari world . . .).

Mondials are, it seems appropriately priced in relation to the 2-seat cars; 2+2 Ferraris are always less than the 2-seat ones.

I disagree about the age thing mentioned above; that works up until about 20-25 years old; from then on, it's beauty . . . and horsepower. If you look at classic cars of any age greater than 25 years, prices/values almost always go hand in hand with power/speed (when comparing apples to apples). A few examples: X19s and Lancia Scorpions are cheap . . . 383 Challengers and 454 Chevelles bring ridiculous money. A 155hp 1987 944 sells for 1/4 of what a 170mph 1987 928S4 sells for. Urracos struggle to reach mid $20ks . . . while awkward-looking V12 Lamborghinis (Espada, etc.) sell for 3-4 times the price . . . and of course the Miura and Countach are ridiculous in price. Boras are $50k-$100k while Meraks are 1/4 of that. I'd say, once cars get old, price comes down to power, beauty, reputation/lore, and condition. There are few old classics worth good money I can think of that are slow/underpowered -- the Porsche 356 is the only solid example that comes to mind.


Getting back to your comments -- carbs vs. injection -- road testers overwhelmingly welcomed the arrival of injection on the 308s. It is better than carburetion by all accounts; better to drive, more reliable, less risk of fire, cleaner emissions, and just as tunable . . . unless you are nostalgic for gurgling and popping carburetors. Your average 308 owner is a "Generation X-er" who grew up in an era where the best and most desirable sports cars were low and sleek, had the engine behind the seats, and things like fuel injection were cool stuff that you wanted to have. The people who are currently the driving force of the classic car hobby are nostalgic "Baby Boomers" who long for the days of bugeyed fenders, cackling Webers, and front-engined convertibles; as long as they are the driving force of the classic car hobby and as long as there are droves of people who can't think for themselves and just regurgitate what magazines and web sites say, rather than just forming their own opinions of cars they like, fragile, slow, 246 Dinos will be worth $200k and 308s will be worth $35k.

And that's perfectly fine with me! -- If I were to pit my play money against theirs, they will always win! i.e., I couldn't afford a 308 -- my favorite Ferrari -- if Boomers liked them.

Another word about carbs vs. injection: There exists a popular misconception about late carbureted 308s. People -- namely wishfully thinking owners and eBay jockeys -- like to claim they are all 250 horsepower . . . . reality is that catalyst carbureted U.S. model 308s were all rated at 205. Injected cars were rated the same, but magazine testers repeatedly noted an overall increase in performance. But when you have cars that are sold around the world, people like to quote the European model HP and performance statistics when talking about the American cars, and as long as there are eBay cowboys slanging 308s with cut-and-paste descriptions, the misinformation will persist. . . .


Your last point -- QV vs. 2Vi -- I've driven a couple/few of each, and whatever performance difference exists between the two of them is barely perceptible -- if at all -- from the driver's seat. Any measurable performance difference between the two of them can easily be lost in the time of a single shift. When I was first 308 shopping, the difference in asking prices between 2Vis and QVs was about $10k. A waste of money, in my opinion, especially when a 2Vi can be massaged to equal a stock QV in numbers for a lot less (which I never found worth my time, either). I think the price difference stems from a few things: 1) Leftover from when the cars were newer and depreciating; 2) Some people have to have the "ultimate" version of whatever car it is, and the additional price doesn't matter (even if it's a poor value); 3) Old magazine tests demonstrating that the QVs are indeed faster by a second.

Regarding that last point, a second -- roughly 6 seconds vs. 7 seconds for injected 308s -- was bragging material in the 1980s . . . but today, they're all slow when compared to just about any sports car. Consider older Ferraris for a moment -- few people care or talk about which year of a particular model was faster, or how fast they are in general. People don't buy them because they want the latest, fastest thing; they buy them because they want something beautiful, and they already know it's fast enough for their purposes and by the standards of its day. I suspect that as 308s get older, people won't care as much which version it is for the same reasons.

Am I knocking the QVs? Absolutely not! They are, without question, the best 308s. I'm not trying to pull the QV down; I'm pulling the 2V up (to where it belongs) in perception. One more note: the 1984-85 QVs have galvanized bodies; I think there should be some kind of a premium for this over the pre-galvanized ones. . . . but people are for the most part clueless about this. Most of the talk I've seen on this forum suggests that 1) people don't know the difference between galvanizing and "rustproofing"; and 2) people think all QVs are galvanized (or "rustproofed"). . . .


So, to answer your final question, 2Vis are cheaper because people don't know any better, are uninformed, and/or can't think for themselves. For what it's worth, though, in the months prior to the economic collapse last year, I saw quite a few 2Vi 308s with asking prices in the mid to high $30ks. And since the collapse, there have been quite a few QVs selling in the mid-$20ks (even low $20ks for a few), and there are still plenty of 2Vi cars selling in the high-$20ks. Perhaps we are starting to see prices even out a bit? Personally, I think the premium for a QV over a 2Vi should be about ten percent for a non-galvanized car, 15-18 percent for a galvanized example; i.e. a few grand -- not ten -- in today's market.


It's hard not to have opinions and make observations about prices/values. These are, after all, Ferraris. But all in all, I'm mildly disgusted by the fixation that many Ferrari owners -- particularly those on FerrariChat -- have with the values of their cars. Sure, we all want our cars to be worth more money, but of all the (dozen or so) different marques of sports cars I've been involved with, no bunch of people are more strung up by the values of their cars. My suggestion to all 308/328/Mondial owners is to enjoy your car for its merits and stop worrying about how much it's worth. They're cheap Ferraris, and, in my opinion, the only Ferraris (along with the Testarossa) that are intrinsically worth anything close to the money that they actually change hands for.

 

In my opinion the 308 does look better than the 328, but I realize that its all relative and up to ones personal taste. Of course, I grew up watching Magnum, so the 328 just doesnt do it for me in the same way, in spite of the similarities.

As far as the Mondi, its essentially the (Ferrari) family sedan that does happen to have a Ferrari engine. Yes, the coachwork is beautiful, but at the end of the day its still a four seater. The vast majority of the general population probably wouldnt even think that Ferrari makes a four seater (including members of my own family). To those people, some of whom will buy Ferraris, a Ferrari should always be a two seater sports car, not a family transport.

Back to the 308/328 the design of those cars is simply iconic. When those are seen on the road there is absolutely NO doubt that it is a Ferrari. So, their values are going to be a bit higher based on that idea alone in my opinion.

Before I got my QV I was going to be happy with any 308, regardless of year - carb, 2v, 4v, whatever. But as I did my research, and talking with many owners it seemed that the QV cars seemed to be a lot more reliable than the earlier cars. Part of that may be due to age and part may be the design improvements over the years. Either way, I am proud to be the owner of one.


PDG

 

Personally, I think the 2V ('80-'82) CIS cars are a steal right now. Why?

1. While the carbs sound good and provide better throttle response and a few more hp, the webers can be difficult to tune for many non-technical owners, and, often go out of tune faster than a CIS car will. The idle is more stable in a CIS car and driveability is slightly better.

2. Performance comparisons/differences between carb, 2V and 4V will become irrelevant in my opinion. As these cars move from contemporary to vintage (30+ years old) the minor performance differences become less important. It's more about rarity at that point. Besides, none of these cars is real fast anyway.

3. The 308 body is classic and has cleaner, more iconic lines than the 328.

4. The 308 interior is a work of art - the switch gear is wonderful and the vintage looking design is great to see.

5. Classic 911s have gone through the same evolution, just a few years earlier. The early 911s are all about the same price (T, E, L) except for the rarer 911S. These 911s are all highly valued because they are the iconic 911.

But, I'm usually wrong about these things so who knows.....

 

IME the QV is more reliable than the 2V inj. cars. QV benefited from many improvements. I can definitely feel the difference between a 2V inj and a QV. Not just saying that there is a difference. I have owned all 3 308s models. Some of the 2V inj. has the high oil consumption issues. 308s look better than 328s to me also. I just spent 20 minutes looking at both in my garage comparing side by side, JMHO though.

 

You will. Soon. Unfortunately, these cars are becoming less desirable. It's hard to predict when they will become more desirable, but I suspect it will be quite some time. :-(

 

i can add as a buyer and owner of several 308s that the 2v injected cars still hold a bad reputation as oil burners, and for being a bit underpowered. now this may be an undeserved reputation, but i have heard it over and over again, and i have to believe it affects the prices of the cars. i know i will not own or consider a 2v injected 308.

the 328 does nothing for me. i would, and do buy other cars, instead of buying a 328. i will not own one, and if i did, it would have to be a 328 GTB. i think they are rarer than my 308 GTB QV i currently own. not worth that last few grand over a QV GTB.

i just bought another 911. this one is an 85 Carrera Targa. mint, low miles, serviced, $16k.

i can in effect have a GTB QV, AND a freaking nice 84-89 3.2 Carrera for what a 328 would have cost me by itself. so why SHOULD i buy a 328 or a ridiculous 206/246 for even more cash??????

the Dino 206/246 baffles me. i have stated before that i have lots of gear head friends with way more cash than myself. all of us scratch our heads and wonder who the hell actually pays that much for the 206/246 cars. they are "pretty" but just not worth the premium, and to me they are just too damn old. i can buy about 5 cars for what a nice 246 GTS sells for, and have a full garage.


i have had an Urraco. the 2 Jalpas. the Pantera, and the Lotus. i would have a newer Lotus i think, and i would welcome another Pantera. there are alot of cars in that $25-$45k price corridor. Diablos, Countachs, and BB512s elude me, and scare me with their needs and scarce parts issues. i cannot justify a v12 anything in this new Police State we all live in. the slow cars are cheaper, and safer to have fun with.

you guys with modded 1000 hp lambos and Ford GTs are my heroes, but i hope you stay out of jail and dont kill anybody.

i would consider a Mondial coupe for fun i guess.

i loved my carb series one 308 GT4. it was $12k of super cool fun. had a rebuilt engine and trans, and a bit of rust. i should have kept that damn car, just like it was, and drove the piss out of it.


yes the prices are all screwed up. i have a buddy looking for a 328, and he is more confused, the more homework he does. i have had an effect on him, as he does NOT want a red/tan car either!


to me :

it depends on how much cash you have.

if you have emissions and inspections to worry about.

and how the car is going to be used.


i am single, and can buy what i want. older cars and euro cars are easy to register here.

a buddy of mine that has way more cash than me is now married, with a small child, and 2 businesses to run.

he does not have time for carb car tweaking and tuning every other weekend. he wants to drive NOW, when he has a free moment now and then. 4 seats so the wife and kid can go, and working a/c are a plus. so he is out on most of the carb cars, most of the 2 seaters, and all of the v12 / flat 12 cars.

now he has the 308 Gt4s ( maybe, ref carb issues) late 911s, and mondials to look at . not much choice is there!

 

i hope QV's dont go that low. if so, i will chop up my GTB QV, and make it into a slow track car my 911 can beat up on !


oh yea..... sodium filled exhaust valves went away on the QV's. as the older carb cars, and the injected 2 valve cars age, the cost of having to replace the sodium filled exhaust valves will become a factor.

all of the 2v 308 GTB, GTS, GT4, and Mondial engines had sodium filled valves, even the injected cars.

the QVs DO NOT.

 

FWIW I have had a number of single and multi-carb cars and when they are set up right they don't usually go out of tune. That said, I'm married with two teenagers and can't exactly buy what I want but I do have a little more freedom now. I just want an injected car for the ease and reliability, and the nature of a 4v engine is just that much more urgent. Besides there are detail differences between the 2v and 4v cars that push the QV over the top for me. They are worth a little more for that...not a ton more mind you, but a little.

 

All Ferraris are works of art, and like all art each appeals to the different masses. You might slam a 246 for its price but if it was parked in your garage when Enzo died and suddenly jumped 100k in value the next day, you would be here telling everyone what a great little car it is, so I'm not buying your arguement. Vehicle condition and heritage is what counts.

 

Fibreglass 308s tend to sell to buyers who really seek them and will pay a premium. The advantage is that they are fibreglass and therefore scarce.

In the U.S., the 308 has heavy battering ram safety bumpers that really don't look all that great, so most people prefer the 328. The 328 is also the most reliable Ferrari built to date, and that appeals to people who are scared of Ferraris due to potential shop costs.

Ferrari had a hard time getting workable emissions in the U.S., and the 2v injected cars reflect that. They lack the horsepower and rustproofing of the later 308s, and the quality wasn't great -- e.g., the infamous oil-burning problem.

There's generally a collective reason the market values cars the way it does. I happen not to like 1989 328s as much, because of the wheels and door handle changes, but that's just my opinion, and I enjoyed the discount when I bought my '87.

Bingo.

 

Tony - This old thread that I started 5 years ago may interest you.

Cheers - DM


http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5748&

 

My carbs don't pop and crackle, that's a distributor advance problem!

And once they are serviced I shut the hood and leave them alone......for years at a time.

The major styling difference between the 308s and the 328s is the revision to the bumpers, parked side by side you see the lower valance brought flush to the bumper, more or less...

But as noted the later bumpers were NOT what Pininfarina had in mind for the car's appearance.

Fibreglass vs. steel is a personal taste decision and the post is correct that had them linger in the market as a "hard sell" when new.....but they DID look a lot better than the GT4 beside it....

IMO only of course!

 

Nice. I also just bought another 911 this weekend, an '88 Carrera Targa with low miles, all original paint and interior, service records, etc.

I actually sold my last 911 a while ago to make room to buy the Mondial. I like the Mondial (in many ways I like it better than the 308QV I used to have), but can't live without a 911. The 911 is IMO the best overall sports car ever produced, with a driving magic few cars can match, and construction that is second to none.

 

This is gospel! I own both end-members of the argument (well just about): An '83 Mondial QV and a fully European Spec. '79 308GTB, dry sump, carbs, deep chin, etc.. And believe me, they're both GREAT. Of course, my Mercedes saloon is faster.

-rick

 

+1, especially the part about hp!!!
i think Ferrari owners get way to hung up on comparing Ferraris to other Ferraris while the rest of the automotive world is passing them by.
an 85 qv is faster than a 80 gts-i. so what, these both have difficulty putting 200hp to the rear wheels. -and that aint much
maybe thats why some owners complain about a 308 boom that never was. hmm...

some may knock me for my 328 being modified, but mine is legitimately fast, not just fast among other 308 or 328's. because of this, to me, its the single most valuable gts ever!

308's are the right cars built at the wrong time. make yours fast and you'll never worry about re-sale -cause you'll never want to sell.
there is no better feeling than being pushed back into the seat of my 'lowly' 328 that everyone around me wants to measure themselves against!
well, blowing away hi priced performance cars in a $600 buick that owes me nothing is a pretty good feeling also

btw, i understand the romantic value of the carbs. but lets face reality, they dont compare to the ease of injection. not even the k-jet!
besides, if you wanted to build real power and convert to EFI, the manifold is already there(but you gotta ditch that 80mph speedo ).
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

This is a great thread, and interestingly similar to a thread posted on the Datsun Z board I post to. Primarily, one of how cars a valued and how that "value" is created primarily on perceptions. As an example, the Z world rationalizes that "early" 240Zs (70-71) are worth more than later 240Zs (72-73) - odd, considering that the 72-73 Z's were superior in every way, with the '72 being the better powered car of the two.

Having driven a few of the 3x8 cars (but not an owner), I can understand the QV premium over the 2V cars for the reasons stated above. It's newer and has the benefit of almost 10 years R&D. That being said, the carbed cars are a blast to drive, and carbs aren't really all that difficult to tune if you know what you're doing. People used to tell me SUs were a b*tch and I ended up with 5 of them (3 on my E-Type, 2 on my 240Z) - they're EASY to work on and tune!!!

What I don't get is the 328. A great car for sure, but when you see $60K examples, it baffles me. I get the law of supply and demand, but no thanks to that price...leave it to someone with the budget.

And speaking of budget, the 2V carbed cars are perfect for me. Gives me room to make some mods and/or have a repair slush fund. Given that my car would be a QQ (NJ historic), weekend warrior, it's a no-brainer.

 

I also have an 80 GTSI which I am in love with!!
What can be done to make it faster?

 

Well, folks can "argue" all they want re the value and their opinion about 308s being better looking or that age doesn't matter but they are talking with their emotions, not with reality. THe REALITY is that based on actual selling prices, 328s cost more than 308's; both cost more than Mondials of the same year/condition. We can talk all day about what we would LIKE to be true but the reality is that if you find a nice 328 it will cost you more than a nice 308, just like a nice 1968 Formula S Plymouth Barracuda will cost more than a nice 1967 Formula S Barracuda.

I think it raises false xpectations to try to "argue" these cars into the same category as earlier Ferrari models with build numbers in the hundreds (or less). Kind of of like "drinking a girl pretty." Works in the heat of the moment but not in reality.

 

That of course is currently true, not really much to debate there.

I do think, though, that there is a decent chance that at some point in the future the 308 will generally surpass the 328 in value.