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308GTB Production Volume

Discussion in '308/328' started by SSSARCH, Sep 29, 2019.

  1. SSSARCH

    SSSARCH Rookie

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    Can anyone tell me how many 308 GTB, carbureted, dry sump (Euro) vehicles were produced, excluding RHD versions? Thanks in advance!
     
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  3. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
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  4. SSSARCH

    SSSARCH Rookie

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    Thanks for the reply. I should have also specified "steel body", not fiberglass.
     
  5. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Rookie
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    It’s in a thread here somewhere. About 1200 steel dry sumps comes to mind. Not sure if that includes UK cars or not. I may be remembering wrong though. Given that there were only 800 odd glass cars, the steel dry sumos aren’t exactly common either.
     
  6. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    No-one knows the exact figure, as it has not been published; however, deductions are possible and give a good ballpark.

    The factory figures for the total 308 GTB carburated production is 2993, although we do not know if this includes the "last five cars" (well known here, ask Martin and Alberto, who each have one), which were produced somewhat "out of sequence".
    From these 2993, if we substract the 808 vetroresina, we find 2185 steel bodied 308 GTB carburated.
    (Beware: the total figure for the production found in some publications at 2897 is a reversed construction: from the 2185 steel bodied cars, they add 712 vetroresinas...but we have known for ages that the 712 figure is wrong, that story is well known but we will not quote it here again...).
    Of these 2185, about 600 are US cars, with wet sump engine; "about 1200" are euros cars, with dry sump engine; UK LHD cars, with dry sump engine, numbers exactly 211.
    "Triple Black", with whom we were discussing the matter recently, should have more precise figures...

    Rgds
     
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  8. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    As said there have been threads on this ,and no absolute facts.

    Best guestimate seems to be :

    Total dry sump GTB around 1700
    Including Vetro 800
    So around Steel 900

    UK Steel 211
    ROW Steel ?

    So that leaves circa 700 Euro LHD Dry Sump/carb Steel 308 GTB

    From this have to deduct the ROW RHD cars ,total guess of 50?

    So +/- 650.

    We will probably never know the exact amounts.
     
  9. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Sorry, but this is a wrong construction:
    a) total Vetroresina is 808, but about 150 of these are wet sump: the US and Australian cars; that leaves you with about 650 dry-sump Vetros.
    b) the "1700" figure has not been confirmed: again, this figure is a deduction, because the last known engine number for dry-sump engine is in the "1700" bracket, but as no list of 1700 consecutive figures for dry-sump engines exist, these might actually not all have been mounted in a car.

    Better ask "Triple Black", he has the most accurate figures available yet.
     
  10. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    Yes you are correct , i forgot the wet sump Vetro's:oops:
     
  11. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Rookie
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    I knew that you and Triple would know best. So, there are "roughly" 1000 RHD Dry Sump GTBs in steel...only slightly less rare than the VRs...

    Thanks so much for posting. It's a fascinating topic to me.

    Also wondering how many have been wrecked...never know that I suppose.
     
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  13. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Hi Will,

    The trouble is, when you are collecting numbers, as Robert Retzlaff - for instance - is doing, is that at some stage you reach a plateau: at the beginning you find a lot of chassis numbers rather easily, to reach let's say about 66% (= two third) of the total you are aiming at...
    and then the last 33% or one third is incredibly difficult because you are dealing with cars that do not get driven often, so are almost never seen; with owners that refuse to disclose their chassis numbers; with cars hidden in collections, exported in "improbable" countries for Ferraris and with cars destroyed in accidents...each time you find a "new" chassis number you are overfilled with joy, but the truth is that you might be missing 800 cars, and find only twenty "new ones" each year...and the closer you will come to the end, the rarer the new finds will be...

    I guess - and this is only a GUESS - that the number of 308 GTB destroyed in accidents is "not that high". Perhaps 10 to 15% max...

    Rgds.
     
  14. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    I guess you meant 1000 Euro (including 211 UK RHD)?
     
  15. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    ...One importer at least, Maranello Concessionaires, has been helpful with the numbers of cars imported, but for others, we know actually very few about these; some do not disclose anything, others have been gone for quite a long time, etc...and there is many unknown territories in the matter, from some countries with important volumes, such as Japan, for instance (LHD cars, but wet-sump engine)...

    rgds
     
  16. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Rookie
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    No. I meant what I wrote.
     
  17. TripleBlack

    TripleBlack Formula Junior
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    I don't like too much talking about numbers because only Ferrari knows really about them...
    but, today (Oct 2019), from what I have on my list, and looking at chassis and body numbers side by side, I have:

    (nerofer, it is what I've sent you few weeks ago, no more, no less)

    vetro
    :
    USA: 100
    EURO continental: last body known is 521 but there is at least 6 steel chassis earlier, that gives us an estimate of more or less 515 cars (I don't know if the pre-production cars 18317-18319-18321 had a body #…).
    RHD: 200

    So:
    1- as the number of vetroresina given by the factory is 808,
    2- as the number of RHD is given by Maranello UK which is "the" source is 154, RHD rest of the world is 44 or 46 (2 chassis difference between sources)
    3- as the number of US chassis are stuck between Euros

    Then, my estimate of Euro are wrong = there is more than 6 Euro steel chassis before the last vetroresina, or there were some unused body number by the factory (development car or whatever). There should be only 510 Euro continental vetroresina (or 512 if the non UK RHD are 44).


    steel:
    USA: only from body numbers, I have more or less 982 - 100 vetro (same sequence) = 882
    Euro continental: only from body numbers, 1310 - vetro (same sequence) = 800
    I don't have the number of RHD and it is really hard for me to talk about body number with that market it's so hard to have information from the owners but I estimate the last GTB body to 390
    We should have 100 + 882 + 510 + 800 + 390 + 200 = 2882

    So, based on the number from previous post, I miss 111 chassis, either in US, RHD or Euro. We can say that it's a lot, but over time, I try to refine at best. When the owners share, it's great but I understand that others have nothing to do.

    I guess that comment doesn't answer your question but at least, it's a point of view from the figures found in the field.

    and this is just about GTB carbs.... :)
     
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  18. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    There were only 211 UK RHD , so hard to imagine total Dry Sump RHD as 1000.Maybe LHD + RHD combined would be around 1000?

    All Aus and USA cars were wet sump.
     
  19. SSSARCH

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  20. SSSARCH

    SSSARCH Rookie

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    Thanks to everyone for responding! I'm in the process of purchasing my first Ferrari and improving on my "Rookie" status on FC. I'll post the details here once I've secured the car.
     
  21. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Rookie
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    Yes maybe. I was operating off what I remembered as 1200 steel dry sumps total RHD plus LHD. Apparently there are less total steel dry sumps and more RHD ones than I remembered. So the LHD dry sumps are pretty darned rare in the overall 308 stratosphere.
     
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  22. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    [...]

    Yes indeed: I know that these are the numbers we were discussing a few weeks ago; but as it is your work, I think it is best that you speak about these figures yourself; I don't like stealing other's people work...and I was hoping that you would chime in...

    I'm wondering about the "Rest of the World", and notably about the japanese cars: do we have any information about the way these were identified by the factory in the production batches?
    We know from the technical bulletin #331 from Dec 22, 1978 ("spring rates"), that the japanese market GTSs were considered specific, at least for their shocks and springs.
    But as for the GTBs, were these included among the US cars (the japanese Ferraris are LHD, and the japanese 308s had cats, so their standard is very close to the US market cars).
    If the japanese cars are NOT included inside the US production numbers/sequence, they might attest for a good part of the missing 111 or so cars...

    Rgds
     
  23. TripleBlack

    TripleBlack Formula Junior
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    Sorry if what follows may seem indigestible but to answer nerofer who knows my method based on analysis without any a priori (in french, hope the expression is universal)

    To explain the missing chassis, this would have been indeed simpler, unfortunately, I distinguished only 3 sequences (so far):

    1st: Euro continental LHD vetroresina + steel (with higher body# 1310 owner is Martin308GTB here on F-Chat) with 3 other GTB then with a higher chassis number but not necessarily a higher body number either. The numbers do not necessarily follow, especially at the end of the period before a change of model, it is already obvious at the end of vetroresina.

    2nd: USA + JAP, this last market sees the letter "G" engraved after the "A" and the sequence fits in that of the USA. I have few documented chassis thanks to the help of an owner in Japan.

    3rd: RHD = UK + AUS, with the letters "AU" engraved after the body number for models in wet sump, that is to say, those intended for Australia only because cars for NZ or for HK were taken on the UK quota they do not have any additional special letters.

    I can easily understand that resonating from the assembly number is confusing but it's just another approach. We have this number available, so much to enjoy.

    I am sorry to tell you that I did not specify my last operation in the text last night. The figure of 2882 is the total of all bodies combined, not only steel.

    If I try to answer the question of steel GTB, here is the details according to the body numbers without taking into account the official (or unofficial) figures:

    (Body# US - vetroresina US) + (Body# Euro - vetroresina Euro) + (Body# RHD - vetroresina RHD) = (982-100) + (1310-521) + (390-207) = 1854 GTB (LHD + RHD)

    LHD details:
    Last US body# known: 950 with chassis 30329 -> F-Chatter 4right with 32 (US + JAP) GTBs known behind (this can be obviously a little more but in a marginal way).

    Last EURO body# known: 1310 with 3 GTBs known behind
    So for steel LHD GTB dry sump: 789


    RHD details:
    Last RHD body # known: 381 on chassis 31331> F-Chatter Chayanin with 9 GTBs chassis known after (same comment as for the US)
    Inside RHD, I have last vetroresina body# known: 207 on chassis 21253.

    So for steel RHD GTB all market: 183

    @Ferrari 308 GTB, when you say there is only 211 UK RHD, do you mean, steel or vetro + steel?
    We see a lot the number "154" UK RHD vetroresina, that means only 57 steel UK RHD? That seems quite low.

    If we have 390 RHD cars minus 207 vetros, that leaves 153 RHD steel car (including UK + AUS). Note it is only GTB, Australian market did import GTS ...
    So if I consider the number 211 as the number of RHD steel UK, that means that I miss 58 UK body numbers without counting AUS bodys and there are some.
    I have trouble organising these figures for it to be coherent, nevertheless, the body numbers are more or less progressive in the 2 sequences RHD and Euro continental, they are less for a period on the US sequence but it is another debate (one could think some of the sequence had been reset but that is incorrect).

    I repeat, this is not "the truth", it's just a different point of view, I'm neither inside the Classiche department nor Maranello UK (unfortunately)...
    And I'm waiting for the contradiction or help on body numbers (the very good topic on the assembly numbers on this forum is dying, those number are not interested anyone anymore I guess...), so I hope this exciting discussion will advance the knowledge! :)
     
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  24. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
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    Your maths is incorrect. 390 - 207 = 183 not 153.

    Maranello Concessionaires literature and the literature of the Maranello Concessionaires Archive state 154 UK RHD Vetroresina 308 GTB and 211 UK RHD Steel 308 GTB (carb). Maranello Concessionaires, as well as being the UK importer, for some years were also the importer for other RHD markets including Australia, Hong Kong and Singapore (although never for South Africa). I think it may be the case that the 154 UK fibreglass cars actually includes one or two RHD cars that were not UK cars but actually for Hong Kong or Singapore etc. There were certainly more than 211 steel carb GTBs supplied by Maranello Concessionaires with the extra cars over and above the 211 going to the other RHD markets mentioned. So the number for RHD 308 GTBs which must be at least 154 + 211 + Maranello Concessionaires cars supplied to other RHD markets + South African cars + any other RHD cars supplied by other importers. If your number for RHD fibreglass cars is correct at 207 then the carb total must be at least 430 (207 + 211 + >20).
     
  25. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Very welcome addition Jonathan, thanks; I have been wondering about South Africa for quite sometime, although the number of cars exported there is probably not very high; but combined to others RHD markets, it counts nevertheless...

    Rgds
     
  26. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    @Ferrari 308 GTB, when you say there is only 211 UK RHD, do you mean, steel or vetro + steel?

    211 UK RHD Steel.
     
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  27. TripleBlack

    TripleBlack Formula Junior
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    #24 TripleBlack, Oct 1, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
    thank you very much @jtremlett

    the number 153 is a typo, I put 183 2 lines upper.

    It is even more complex because, if you do 154 (RHD UK specs vetroresina (to include HK-NZ...)) + 44 (RHD AUS vetroresina) = more or less 207 as the body number shows
    if there is 211 steel RHD UK cars + an unknown number of RHD for Australia = 207 + 211 + >20 = a bit more than 390.

    As the AUS sequence is inside the UK, I have a problem for the approx 40 bodys....

    My estimate based on body could be large, let's say around 10, but 40 is a lot, I can't explain the 211 dispatch number, I don't have enough data for the moment, as I say before, it is a work in progress.

    Concerning the RSA, I've tried several times to enter in contact with the SEFAC but with no answer. All 308 carb owner I know in there have Euro LHD model, the first model I know as a RSA delivery market car is an injected car.
    In the 70's, RSA laws obliged the car manufacturer to built (or assemble) car for this market into the country (it is more complicate than my explanation but that's what I've concluded), this might explain that. So for me, there is no RSA 308 GTB carbs market car.
     
  28. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
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    I did correspond with someone at Sefac last year which was, as it happens about a particular 308 GTB that had been in South Africa for some years. He told me that some 308s were bought directly to South Africa from Italy (and some of those were then driven on Italian Export plates). Some were imported from the UK early on and some were imported via the South African Importer (that no longer exists and probably with their records long gone too). He told me he was only aware of two fibreglass 308 GTBs in South Africa but he didn't specify whether they were original South African cars, ex-UK or whatever.
     

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