Hi gang, I finished the 30K service on my Euro 84 308QV 10 days ago, then headed off on a quick weekend road trip from Calgary to Winnipeg on Thursday, about 1800 miles round trip! I just returned today, with a couple of problems. First, my car currently sounds like a cross between a lawn mower and a VW Beetle - due to an exhaust gasket leak on #3 (rear bank). I can feel the air puffs (after a cold start, of course). This must have happened yesterday afternoon, about 600 or 700 miles ago. I noticed it last night when I pulled off the highway and removed the earplugs... and confirmed it on startup this morning. Where can I buy replacement exhaust manifold gaskets? I see Superformance lists 111532 for £3.95 each, but Ricambi lists 147705 for $28.27 each! (and says that part number supercedes 111532) (Ferrari Parts : 147705 GASKET/EXH : Ricambi America) Are those the only options? Are they equivalent?
Are you SURE it is the gaskets? On the few 308's I've been around it is far more likely to leak exhaust from broken or rotted out air injection port or sample port piping and fittings.
Hi Brian, I am pretty certain it's the gasket - on my Euro QV there are no air injection ports, just the bare manifold plate surface and header tubes - Ferrari 308QV Parts : Table 13 - EXHAUST SYSTEM Anyone, pointers on which gaskets to use?
If you are buying 8, it might work out $-wise for going the Superformance route -- but for 4 might be less overall time+shipping+customs-is-money hassle to go with Tom Vail's All Ferrari Parts, Ferrari Spares, Vintage Parts at $19 each. Are you also checking sources like www.trutlands, Ferrari Parts, Huge Warehouse, Fast Shipping, New Used and OEM, and www.ferrariparts.co.uk? (Those are the ~6 online sources that I usually use as a sanity price check for F stuff shopping - and AFP is often best IME for delivery to North America.)
Really, the Euro QVs don't have air injection OR sample ports? Is that linked diagram right?!?One more reason to buy a Euro!
Steve, thanks, I will follow up with those vendors as well. Brian, the linked picture is correct for the Euro QVs!
Well, received a surprise tonight! After receiving the new exhaust manifold gaskets from Superformance, I went to prepare to remove the nuts holding the exhaust manifold to the head. Below are two photos, showing what I found - the #2 header piped looks to be cracked at least half way around the circumference, less than an inch from the flange. It also looks like #1, #2, and maybe #3 have all been welded up in the past! So it's not just a gasket leak (damn!). I will now have to pull the header completely from the car, but I need to determine if I should see about having this latest crack welded, or find a replacement. I've sent a few emails tonight to Eurospares and Superformance in the UK to see if they have a used or new piece, and to Rutlands - they show the best price of the US vendors. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Well, I was right to be skeptical about the gaskets leaking, but this surely was not going to be my guess! Those headers look like they've been repaired more than once. Why would that be? Are the headers fastened to the rest of the exhaust system with the spring loaded bolts? Apparently those springs help alleviate stress on the headers. If it were my car I'd be looking at replacement rather than repair.
The fact that the headers are missing the heat shielding suggests that they have previously been removed from the car.
Mark, have a look at the Exhaust TAV page linked in post #3 - the Euro QV exhaust manifolds are bare, no integrated heat shields. Brian, I was pretty surprised for sure! I will look to get the header pulled tomorrow or Friday for a closer look. I asked in the Canada forum section for a recommendation for a welder, and will probably go for an interim weld job so that I can drive it for another month before the snow flies. The header certainly has been repaired on the #2 primary tube, but also on #1 and maybe #3. There aren't any spring loaded bolts, but the parts page doesn't show them on the Euro QV. Maybe I should track them down and rig them in? I've also sent out a bunch of inquiries about a replacement header or two... If anybody knows of a lead on used Euro QV headers, please let me know!
I didn't look but I thought Superformance sold headers. My muffler guy said that perhaps the reason that GT4s seem to have header problems could be that they didn't use the spring loaded bolts. Later 308's do have them and don't seem to have cracking headers. But I think his sample size is too small to draw any real conclusions.
Thanks to T Rutlands, I have a new set of Tubi headers for a Euro QV on the way. Thanks to FedEx, they didn't arrive in time for me to install them this weekend... I had a further look today, and was surprised again - the crack that looked to be about 1/3 of the way around on the lower side of the #2 primary tube looked even worse from above! I think the previous weld repair job looks to be a hack, and the crack immediately adjacent to the weld supports the poor quality repair theory. Photo showing the rear header #2 primary tube from below; then from above! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Yikes, a month flies by pretty quickly! It's actually two months since the header crack developed... but the new Tubi headers have been sitting on display in the garage for a month, and even though the snow (and graveled and salted roads) arrived last week and the Ferrari may well be parked until April, I wanted to get this sorted on the rear header sooner than later. The front header replacement requires the passenger side fuel tank to come out, so that will wait a bit! The Tubi headers really are works of art - here's the rear header: Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
After removing the muffler, muffler heat shield, and unbolting the heat shield over the rear header, I was able to unbolt the rear header and drop it out the bottom (also had to remove the handbrake pivot mount and separate the handbrake cables). One curious note was that the lower nut on the #2 cylinder port stud at first seemed rounded off, then I discovered that it was a 12mm head, instead of 13mm like all the others. Hmmm... Here's a few photos of the old rear header compared to the Tube header, then a couple of the damage on the old header. The gray compound on #2 was where I tried to patch it with a high temp exhaust patch compound - however, after removing the header and discovered that the #2 primary tube was cracked 100% of the way around, ie the tube was completely separated from the flange, it becomes obvious that patching the crack was never going to work! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I highlighted areas on the header which had been welded up previously - along with the large weld on the #2 tube at the flange (which caused the current crack), #2 had been welded a few inches further up, #3 had also been welded at the flange, and the #1 primary had some really wierd multi-bead repair! The previous owner must have been determined to squeeze every possible mile out of that header, because it was doomed a long time ago. The last picture shows a view looking into the #1 primary tube - it's not easy to make out, but the interior is very rough from all the welding passes. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
With new exhaust gaskets in place (from T Rutlands, along with new copper cladded nuts), the new header slipped up into place with less wrestling than the old one required coming out. The new nuts threaded on easily... until... I got to the lower stud on the #2 exhaust port. That was the stud that had the smaller nut, even though the studs are all M8x1.25 size. The new nut wouldn't thread on... hmmm. Then the old nut wouldn't thread on... then it was time for a closer inspection... and the findings were not good. It seems that at some point, likely when one or another hack weld repair job was done, not only was a different nut installed on the stud, but that stud somehow ended up 3mm shorter than all the other exhaust manifold studs! The 7 other studs were 20.5mm protruding above the face of the ports, but the lower cylinder #2 stud had only 17.2mm length. The fabulous Tubi cast flange, with the gasket, was 12mm thick, several mm thicker than the OEM header's plate flange. The 7 normal studs would have 8mm of thread to engage the nuts, but the shorty lower #2 stud would only have 5mm at best. Worse news - the threads on the shorty #2 stud and nut were buggered. The nut had not required excessive force to remove once I put the correct size socket on it, and didn't feel unusual, but still the threads were stripped and neither the old nut or new nut would thread on. Fortunately, I had bought a few spare exhaust studs, just in case. But would the shorty stud cooperate and come out? Since I couldn't thread any nuts on it, I couldn't use the double-nut technique. I had a stud remover socket, but it wasn't doing anything, and I was worried about twisting off the stud. That would have been disastrous, if that occurred then removing the engine would be required to repair the stud. Unfortunately, my spare studs were not going to be of any help. Plan C ended up being to use an M8x1.25 die and re-cut the threads on the stud, in place in the engine bay. This was tricky, since I couldn't use a normal die holder tool with all the other studs in place. I ended up finding a smaller holder, and removed one of the handles so I could use it like a socket wrench. It was awfully slow going, but I did eventually manage to clean up the threads on the stud so that it would take one of the new nuts. Image Unavailable, Please Login
That still left the issue of the dimensional challenged aspect of that stud - the missing 3mm was enough difference that the nut would not engage enough thread to tighten and torque down. Given the issues with the stud and the concern that a previous hack job would have left the stud impossible to remove - I did consider double-nutting it once the threads were cleaned up, but I was too worried about the stud just twisting off. Since I didn't want to attempt to replace the shorty stud with a longer one, I had to address the Tubi flange. I decided to 'thin' the boss on the lower #2 port hole, so dug out my trusty Dremel and a cutoff wheel. After shaving a few mm from the boss and using a file to ensure the final surface was flat, here's a couple of views of the result - the boss for the lower #2 stud is several mm thinner than the adjacent boss, so that the nut should be able to engage a similar number of threads on the stud. I figured that while this was hacking up the gorgeous new Tubi, it would not compromise the flange strength and would not prevent the header from being used on a different car (not that I'll ever sell it!) The other option would have been to track down a sleeve nut for that shorter stud, but that still would have required enlarging the hole on the Tubi for clearance on that stud. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I do have one more stumbling block before re-installing the muffler - I bought the Tubi connecting pipes with the headers as well, but with slightly thicker flanges on the joints compared to the OEM header and connecting pipes, the original bolts are just slightly too short to re-use. While they came off in good condition, it's not a bad idea to put new bolts in with the new exhaust anyway. I'll track down those bolts in a slightly longer length, then take a break before I tackle the front header... Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
That's a tough choice - mess with real Ferrari parts with potentially expensive results or modify a brand-new Tubi header. I think you made the right (and safe) call, but what a hard choice!
When you connect up the link pipes suggest use lots of copper grease on the doughnuts to try & stop them welding themselves to the metal. They are a pig to remove I(f you ever need to) without it.
Gordon, any updates? I'd be interested to hear about sound/performance advantage as well. Also, did you only replace rear headers? Or front ones as well? If so, any access issues? cheers Chris
