Not sure what there is to "solve" here. There is no mystery. The 0900 still survives EXACTLY as it was when it was sold to Chinetti, save for some magnesium castings being treated with a coating to enhance longevity as per factory recommendation. Everything down to the "new" 35 year old tires is original to the time it was first sold.
But Jim you don't want to sell your cars, the owner of 0900 apparently does and it would put a stop the unfair slagging off of his car. Like you I don't think the Classiche generally adds much to the true provenance of a car but sure as heck makes it more marketable. Personally I reckon the availability of 0900 at a the current price is a great opportunity for someone wanting one of these iconic cars.
As someone who has received a Constructor's Trophy from The 24 Hours of Nurburgring I can certify my own cars.
QUOTE=Birel;140976778]But Jim you don't want to sell your cars, the owner of 0900 apparently does and it would put a stop the unfair slagging off of his car. Like you I don't think the Classiche generally adds much to the true provenance of a car but sure as heck makes it more marketable. What? I am not aware if the 0900 (The 312 P(B),that is) being for sale. And I SHOULD know... I thought we established that the elaborate replica car for sale in Denver has NOTHING TO DO WITH 0900.
Hi, all I am saying, in agreement with those that know, 0900 is a great and REAL car. At one time it was offered for sale. I mistakenly assumed it still was. My only point was to say that a Classiche certificate would once and for all eliminate any doubt about 0900 provenance that lingers in some quarters.(not from me) I'm not here to stir up any dispute and obviously the Denver replica is just that and could never be mistaken as anything but.
I have no dog in this fight, but isn't 'retired' a well respected Ferrari historian that might have a different view which has value too? Instead of being discarded as a internet wannabe who has no clue? I could be wrong but maybe 'retired' could confirm (no need to mention names)?
Agreed, obviously Mr.Call has no clue regarding the undisputed state of Ferrari knowledge of the person he's attacking.
"retired" or shall I call you Mr. P? I am genuinely embarrassed about my hasty (and ANGRY) response to your post. This post found me at the end of a very bad day, and I suppose that your posting became the focus of my anger. While it may be cathartic to vent, I do realize that a forum such as this is a completely inappropriate place to do it. I also feel that while you may have an axe to grind with the previous owner of the 0900, making reckless claims regarding the authenticity of this car is just as inappropriate. While I do realize that you have probably forgotten more than I will EVER know about most vintage Ferraris, the 312 P(B) is NOT one of them... The idea of the creation of a 312 P(B) replica or continuation in the 1970's is laughable. Replicas only surface in situations where the authentic item is unattainable due to scarcity, price, or BOTH. While the 312 P(B) is rare (only 10 examples survive) buyers for such a car were even more scarce in period. This is why Harley Cluxton and Albert Obrist owned nearly all of them in the 1970's. While they weren't exactly GIVING them away, I am aware of one being sold to a factory consultant for the particularly friendly price of approximately $12,500 USD in 1974, and most selling in the $20ish thousand dollar range. The sale of 0900 occurred in late 1977 as inflation was ramping up, so it went for a whopping $36,000USD. The 312 P(B)s were not unobtainable due to price, and let's not forget that it took the factory until 1980 to sell the last 312 P(B) that they had. Building a replica 312 P(B) in the 1970's would be like wanting a can of Coca-Cola, and instead of dropping a few coins in a vending machine and having a cool beverage dispensed; deciding to buy the ingredients known to be in Coca-Cola, and attempting to make your own. In 1985, when new Coke hit, I am sure that a few people tried to exactly reproduce the "real thing"; but not in 1977 when the real thing is available and is CHEAP.... AGAIN, I apologize for my lashing out, but sometimes someone just pushes your last button..
I think the point Napolis was trying to make is that Yes, perhaps for some Classiche provides the comfort to go ahead and write the big check- but for many others it isn't anything more than mattress insurance. There are actually some people who would have the unmitigated gall to call into question Classiche's ability to 'certify'. If past performance is any indication, perhaps careful consideration or due diligence in a purchase should include those whose expertise is not in question, not just those who now work at the place where these things were once built. Best, Dave
Michael: The arguement over the history of 0900 has been going on for years with many opinions being expressed, both learned and speculative. The old saw that the Factory records don't show a chassis number "0900" is really a defense of the Classiche department and their suspect historiography. I believe, and it is for others to verify and confirm, that the Factory records were purged years ago of embarrasing and contradictory information. So far as a serious student of this subject should be concerned, the Factroy records are just another resource among many. I am intimately familiar with 0900, but no where near so as your good self. If I remember correctly, one of the most pursuasive arguements you made to me in discussion was the unique (to this chassis) construction techniques used in its manufacture and the photo documentation I believe you have of this chassis sitting completed in the Racing Department of the Factory in period. Memory is a bit hazy, maybe you could elaborate and help clarify things. Cheers
It seems like there is an argument of semantics here and both protagonists are a bit right. My own understanding of 0900 was that the factory never built a car with serial number 0900. At the same time, there was a spare tub produced in period for the PB series. This tub, along with other spares was used to produce the car. Is it a genuine collection of PB tub and parts? Yes. Was it ever acknowledged as a car by Ferrari? I do not believe that it was. The serial number 0900 was used, as it was the next in line after 0898. I guess it would come down to whether the factory ever produced build sheets and assigned the serial number 0900. It is basically a real collection of parts used to build a car that never officially existed.
Not to focus on Classiche too much, but, unfortunately, it has been SpA's own heavy-handed attitude, actions and suspect certifications that has called the entire Classiche programme into question. Some of us are just not letting them brush things under the rug. But, I think, as a result, people in general are becoming better informed about the pitfalls of relying upon a Classiche-issued cert. Regardless of whether a vehicle may have a cert, homework still must be done and caveat emptor still applies. CW
Yes, it is a semantic argument. Yes, I contacted Ferrari regarding 0900 before Classiche existed. Yes, I have spoken to them since. I was (and remain) 100% certain that the 312 P(B) #0900 is absolutely GENUINE, and made $even figure decision based on that certainty. I can say that I made quite an exhaustive study of ALL 312 P(B)s in the process, so I have learned a thing or TWOMILLION along the way. I do not want to engage in a discussion of what is right/wrong with Classiche. That horse has been deaten to death on other threads. I think that the photographic evidence of 0900 before Chinetti's ownership of the car IN THE FACTORY, no less, clearly proves that he had nothing to do with the construction of the car. Because 0900 was never raced and therefore never exported outside of Italy prior to being sold to Chinetti, no CARNET paperwork was ever created for it. This is why 0898 became 0884 after the original 0884 was destroyed by fire at Sebring. IVA taxes had just been paid on 0884, and Ferrari wanted to get some mileage out of the taxes that they had just paid on that one. Since taxes have existed, people have sought creative loopholes to escape them. In the case of the 0900, this is CLEARLY what happened. The 0900 existed in the Chinetti collection untouched for nearly thirty years. The car was still sitting on the same "new" thirty five year old tires that it had when Chinetti, Sr. bought it. The chassis itself is a road map of all developments made to the 312 P(B) chassis from 623/008 to the LWB evolution to 623/012 spec, and beyond with modifications for the 1974 season that these cars never participated in. The 0900 has NEVER been re-restored since it was delivered to Chinetti, and it still has the Scuderia's (and Diena & Silingardi's Sport Auto Modena) fingerprints ALL OVER it. The undisturbed and authentic conditon of the car speaks for itself...
Dont know if Mr. P has contibuted to this discussion or not but I do know he has encyclopedic knowledge of Ferrari matters.
I personally find trashing one's nick on a public forum VERY INAPPROPRIATE at all times. Some people wish to be recognized to some, some to all and some not at all and that wish should be respected, not violated - at all times, no matter what.
