$32,000 in service work??

Ask and thou shall receive...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferrari-308-GTS-Euro-Red-Tan-Serviced-1984/192349046174?hash=item2cc8e5859e:g:TpAAAOSwWHBZ9wlE&vxp=mtr

Rgds

 

I can see $20K but $32K is a lot of fleecing.

 

Seems a touch high, but depending on who is doing it one can absolutely get to $32k doing everything that was done to that car, which I see was mentioned as: timing belt, accessory belts, axle assemblies, radiator, fuel injectors, suspension bushings, brake calipers and pads, filters, hoses, A/C re-charge and numerous sorting and troubleshooting items, etc.

The above is $5-$6k, minimum, in parts alone. Labor spans into the 100+ hour range doing all that stuff. That is essentially a refresh of every mechanical and cooling component on the car sans rebuilding the engine. Just did a 308 suspension rebuild and BIG major including brakes/shocks/springs/every hose, brakes, literally everything sans rebuilding the engine, with another fchatter, it is an absolutely enormous job.

 

I've been watching a lot of Velocity Channel the past few months... and see a lot of people who will nearly write a blank check for "whatever it takes". Things like spending $65K restoring a Corvette - that's now worth about $30K, but it's their baby and that's what they wanted.

The repair total $ looks a bit over the top to me - sort of an endorsement of "learn to turn a wrench." I mean... sure, you can pay a shop $1050 to replace your injectors. Or do it yourself for $160. But some people pick the expensive route.

Maybe he bought it back in the days of $35K 308's, and decided to spend another $32K to bring the condition up to market standards. The car itself looks pretty nice, and the price isn't "yeah, you're dreaming" absurd. So - yeah, the repair bill looks high, but the end result is a reasonable offering.

 

I'm like that with my Scirocco. I will never, ever sell it and I want to use it so whatever it takes to fix it, I will have it done and pay it. Doesn't matter if it is 1000% of it's book value. Doesn't matter.

However, that is not an invitation to charge whatever for whatever. "New water pump?, that will be $15,000 please"...

I would love to see the itemized bill for that trip to the shop. I can see a $15,000 bill which can be scary to a 308 owner but $32 large doesn't make sense

 

Well... guess $32k doesn’t sound so bad when you hear £60k (over 7 years, but still...) is possible (and this was when the pound was still worth, so this comes close to $100k.....)

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/ferrari/308/ferrari-308-gts-1983a-uk-rhd-rosso-corsa-over-60-000-spent-over-last-7-years/7862445


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AGREED! I raced SCCA part of 1999 and 2ooo in a VW and I know where youre coming from!

 

You can also easily spend $32k in service work on a Porsche. It all depends how much has been deferred.

 

My Dino was 'in hibernation' for 20+ years. It was in serviceable condition (frequently used) before it went in for the big sleep.

The previous owner decided to get it running again, but ultimately chose to sell it once it was driveable. Patrick Ottis' shop was retained to do the recommissioning, and the bill was just north of $20K for the basic work... replacing belts and hoses, flushing and cleaning, rebuilding of carburetors, water pump, brakes and shocks, new battery, etc. That work essentially made the car driveable, but there was an additional laundry list of recommended maintenance that needed to be done.

In subsequent years the clutch and tires, oil sender, A/C, and fuse boxes have been replaced. I have also queued-up plans for suspension bushings and blocks, and rebuilding the steering rack at Brian Crall's shop. There are certainly more things that have been done, but these are the ones that first come to mind.

Yes, I could tackle many of these jobs and use sweat equity to reduce the cost... although there is a benefit in deferring to an expert that has done the same task hundreds of times. Also, my lack of space and lack of spare time adds to the value of sending it out for repair. And finally, the shops above are generally considered to be the gold standards here in the United States, so the labor bill might be higher than at other shops.

Note that the list above doesn't include any cosmetic work (paint &/or upholstery). As Ferraripilot says in post #5, the parts amounted to 20%-25% of the total, while labor is the bulk of the cost. The total bill is already in the mid-to-high $20Ks, and my short list above will probably nudge it over the $30K mark.

So, in response to the original poster, I can easily see how it's possible to rack up repair bills that are mentioned in the fleaBay listing.

 

Well, if the bill is legit it certainly begs the question just how f-ing bad a shape was it in before resulting 32,000 worth of repairs.

It may be better to shop around a bit more for one that was better cared for. Just saying.

 

I understand where you are coming from and on the surface it would seem that would be the most common sense option. Unfortunately it's not the reality of a vehicle that is on avg 30yrs old. Time more then anything is taking it's toll on all the plastics and rubber components throughout the vehicle. A rough 308/328 will easily be double that 30k figure, 30k is about right for a taken care of and maintained driver. I've seen it all with the 3x8 chassis, from low mileage concourse winners to rusted out hulks with one foot in the grave.

As noted the bulk of the cost will be labor, these vehicles are labor intensive! seriously so esp after 30yrs where corrosion takes hold and rubber bits have turned to plastic. The 308 was hand built and hand assembled, modern vehicles are so different today that many I think fail to grasp how labor intensive the old way is. Modern vehicles are driven by parts replacement and large component R&R vs rebuilding, driven by mfg costs and insurance to fix costs as labor will fluctuate but parts tend not to.

Current avg costs for the drivetrain.
engine overhaul and rebuild, min 30k.. minimum
Gearbox rebuild, avg 8k, but can easily hit 15k, some of the bearings and gears are fantastically expensive

suspension rebuilding is time consuming, esp the hubs.
replacing the hoses that run fore and aft are a real PITA, esp all the hoses under the front cowl. Fuel tank removal...exhaust header R&R, even removing the alternator is more complex then 90% of vehicles on the road.

Electrical, harness repair... this one can be a real expensive venture.

In short, a 30yr old exotic that is labor intensive, was hand mfg and hand assembled will cost a small fortune to turn back the clock to get another 30yrs. Otherwise it really is deferred half measures.

The other point not touched on here is the quality of the steel and materials used by Ferrari back then... not the best for long term, corrosion abounds, hidden away.

 

Perhaps.

Of course, my purchase was of a 40 year old highly original specimen with a known history back to the original dealer. No hacks, wrecks, "upgrades", etc. The wear and tear was from disuse, and the total cost to make it pristine has been much less than the cost would have been if the original owner paid for twenty years of annual maintenance, wear and tear (and 4-5 belt changes).

Like a home remodel, the original owner's ROI was probably negative if compared to the cost of selling that car in an unrestored condition. That doesn't in any way mean the car was 'uncared for'.

 

I'm sure I have 32K plus in mine, but that is spread out over two decades of ownership. I have no burning desire to add up my records. Hell, I have done 6 belt services and any parts or upgrades done were top quality (such as my David Helms coolant and fuel hoses)

I'm glad I am an owner in 2017 and not someone looking to buy.

 

20k for only the work you mentioned? Man that's what I would call a REAL rip off.

 

Call me crazy, but as a guy who wrenches 100% on his own Ferrari, with knowledge and skills based on 40 years of wrenching and restoration of non-Ferraris, I see both sides of this debate.

On my personal 1988 328 GTS, over 4 years, I've personally been through the car from stem to stern, restoring and selectively upgrading almost every major system or component - lighting, A/C upgrade/restoration, timing belts and valvetrain, accessory belts, complete suspension restoration, including powdercoating and plating every part and even stamping original markings and proof paint, cooling system including all hoses and waterpump rebuild, alternator rebuild, fuel and emissions systems rubber replacement, paint restoration, minor body restoration, weatherstripping, wheel restoration, brakes, axle/CV restoration, shifter system restoration, fuel tank restoration, interior... In all, I've invested ~$7K in parts, and thousands of hours of labor. Along the way, I corrected countless issues created by previous more qualified Ferrari technicians.

It sounds arrogant when I hear myself say it, but none of these more qualified Ferrari mechanics are better wrenches than I am.... they don't cost more because they're better wrenches. Their premium is there because of the knowledge they bring from their Ferrari training and years of experience working on these cars, where they've learned the quirks and foibles of F-cars, such that they can diagnose with nearly 100% accuracy, based just on the owner's description of a sound, over cocktails at an FCA party... and they know the "while you're at it" things, like inspecting/replacing the drive gear bearings when you do your timing belts, or using the upgraded 1-piece seal to rebuild your original water pump, rather than buying a new porous-casting water pump... or which gear oil works best in which gearbox.... Things that shouldn't be taken for granted, that do make a difference in the overall quality of care they provide.

Problem is, even though they don't apply all that knowledge every time they're "just" changing parts in routine maintenance, they do have to charge for it, because that's how they earn a return on their investment, and because they also have many unpaid hours of work in each job. Just sourcing parts takes tons of time, for example, like when I tracked down correct aircraft ducting for the air intake of my HVAC system... I bet it took 4 hours of time to find and procure that single part.... or the 7-11mm stainless steel Norma hose clamps for the fuel and emissions systems, which I had to import from a farm equipment company in Germany... We'd all scream if our Ferrari service provider wanted to charge us for those hours of effort, but those costs are also part of why the rates they charge shouldn't be seen as just "labor rates".

I'm not saying $32K is competitive for the work done on the eBay car; I'm not commenting on whether the costs paid to recommission a rare original Dino were reasonable. I'm just pointing out that those dollars didn't pay for just wrenching, like we can get down the street at Gino's Foreign Car Repairs, or many of us can do ourselves. The way I view it, those fees pay for all the unchargeable expertise our Ferrari-trained, longtime experienced Ferrari specialists apply, that we can't buy anywhere else at any price.

 

I would scream if I was hit for $400-$500 "labor" for someone to find a non-stock "aircraft ducting" for my heater/a/c or speciality German Norma hose clamps. Nothing wrong with either but unnecessary from a repair standpoint.


A few years back a guy moved here and opened a shop and joined a local car club. He seemed nice enough and had a pretty good background with Mercedes and Alfa Romeo. I threw him some misc business with my 308 - I was having problems with a crank position sensor at the time. Seemed easy enough and he was all about being able to get me in and back on the road no problem.
Well there was a problem, the sonofabitch (and he IS one based on not just this and I will be happy to fill anyone in on why, just give me a call anytime) charged me for his time researching how to do it on the internet....
Screw THAT part of ANYONE'S bill. LEARN YOUR JOB ON YOUR OWN TIME!!!
Or to put it another way, why would anyone go to a mechanic that has never done the job before, does not know how to do it and wants to charge extra to learn how before he tries it for the first time on your car vs a mechanic who knows what he is doing, is experienced and will do it for less money??
Someone answer THAT question for me. Convince me that option A is the way to go and only an idiot would go to a well experienced, seasoned tech for less cost.

 

This can all be cleared up simply by revealing the detailed itemized bill. Simple enough.

 

I know.

I have never understood the bragging position held by folks that cut a huge check for trips to the shop. I am only interested in what was done, not what was charged and paid.

 

my 308 GTB drysump "service" costed 85000 euro. Two years of work: 42500 euro per year...

ciao

 

Tommy, sounds like the guy was a Lawyer in another life!