Hey fellers, it's your friendly neighborhood Stooge again. Since I'm planing on re-pinning the engine looms (and maybe even rewiring them) in my 348, I thought I would share with you guys some of my findings. A lot of people have jumped onto the "gold plated kit" bandwagon. So I looked into that. Well at $900-$1300+ that turned out cost WAAAAAAAY too much money in this Stooges opinion. The pins are nothing more than AMP Junior Power Timer pins, made by Tyco, part number 2-927776-1, http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catalog/pn/en/2-927776-1 that have the contact surface of the pin plated in gold. I contacted two big electronic suppliers, Digi-Key and Powell, in an attempt acquire some gold plated pins at sane prices. Powell had the "cheapest" prices of the two, at roughly .34¢ per pin (0.3331¢), on a "small" batch. Now before you get all excited and think you are gonna go out and buy the pins it's not that easy. I was thinking the same thing, "I'll buy 100 pins for $34!".....NOT!!! See the minimum order you need to place to get that price from Powell is 25,000 pins = $8,327.50 for the batch, AND the lead time for the pins is 17 WEEKS! Well that ruled out Powell. So on it was to Digi-Key. Digi-Key was selling a smaller batch for .46¢ per pin (0.46119¢ actually), but that was on a minimum order of 10,000 = $4611.90 you will have to drop in order to get the gold plated pins. And before you think you can find another supplier that will sell a small batch, forget it, Tyco ONLY sells them in batches of 10,000+. Sorry but I don't need gold plated pins than bad. So now what? Well I wasn't gonna buy the pins in HUGE batches, and I wasn't gonna buy the way over priced kit. What to do, what to do, what to do??? Well I opted to just use plain old run of the mill Junior Power Timer Pins. But what about all the extraction tools, and crimpers? Well I found those too. The crimpers could run all the way up to several hundred dollars for the fancy ones. But we are talking Stooge prices here people. I bought some Junior Power Timer style pins from a company called EFI Express. http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/ They were selling them for .50¢ per pin. But since I was buying 100 pins they sold them to me for .40¢ each = $40 for the strip + $5 shipping. Now I have found the Junior Power Timer pins selling in the .18¢ each range, but again, that was on minimum orders of 100,000 pins, yes you read that right, one hundred thousand. So I just bought them from EFI. Now what about the tools? I bought the extractor tools and double crimper from Eagleday http://www.eagleday.com/teextoset.html http://www.eagleday.com/doubcrimtool.html The extractor set was $59.95 (you get 2 tools) and the double crimper was $29.95 = $89.90 for the tooling + shipping of about $5. So for roughly $140 you guys can get yourselves a "Stooge Tin Connector Kit" shipped to your house. Gold? We ain't got no gold. We don't need no stinking Gold! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
If you have the orignal connectors housings you won't have much luck using the extractor tool. They are made to be used with the newer versions. You will have an easier time just cutting the wires and using new male connectors. Just my $.02
You mean these? Why yes, you can buy the boots. I also got the rubber boots from EFI. I think they were something like .15¢ each, or there about??? I bought 100 of those too. Image Unavailable, Please Login
It'll work, I tested it out on the TPS. I did have to pinch the little tongs a bit closer together though. They weren't close enough to keep both of the wings pressed together. So I use a pair of pliers to squeezed the tongs, until they were where I though they would hold the wings on the pins in nicely. Then I tested depinning the TPS sensor, worked like a charm after the little modification. But if I do run into a problem I will definitely keep the cut and remove option handy.
You have my admiration Ernie. But, are you not going to enjoy the better connection afforded by the gold material? That is insane though, having to buy 10,000 pins for that.
Are you going to use dielectric grease in all the new joints to prevent future oxidation? I think your research and numbers show ultimately that if a person has the money that the gold kit is a good value. For me I'm still pulling apart every connection when I come across it and hitting it with deoxit and the grease. Good for you Ernie. At some point you'll be driving your car with Honda reliability.
I was going to use the word Tasteless but that seems lacking. One has to wonder what the motivation is behind the attacks, that makes two in the last few days and all from the same area. There is sound science behind my designs yet a strong resistance to accept it and a fairly strong effort to disprove it..... take your best shot! Lesson learned. The hours I spent on the phone trying to teach someone were not only wasted, they are even used to undermine me..... interesting twist, tasteless move and a valuable lesson learned when the phone rings next. All this type of situation does is to show me I am wasting my time trying to make these cars better and more reliable. I'm a slow learner but I do learn......
Well Dave, remember this quote I sent you about a year ago . . . "Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats." -- Howard Aiken Glad you have made my 348 better and more reliable. I hear rumor of additional performance mods in the works. We will have to talk sometime soon. Keep on truckin'
Wasting your time? You're crazy! Dave, the reviews of the gold connector kit on the forum are incredible. The post/quote that stuck in my mind was: "Don't do anything else to your car without first installing this kit." I'm very appreciative of your efforts.
How many times have I told you. Around here no good deed goes unpunished. Be far more selective of who you help.
Ahh come on Rifle, Dave - you both know you''re going to have the odd run-in from time to time on forum such as this. It's inevitable. You're both a significant asset to the community and mustn't let the odd curve ball take you out of the game.
That is only because no one hears or reads about the dozens of cars where it failed early on and had to be done a second and third time on my nickel. Yes, I failed when I tried to do it cheap but I knew there had to be a solution and I refused to give up until I found it. In time I did and those failures led to a vast amount of earned knowledge. When there is such a blatant effort to usurp all of my efforts with this concept and design and then to do it in a public manner in which it was..... That is yet another attack and I will no longer stand silent or be PC. To have it done by someone who has called me on the weekends at my home to discuss his car, called to the shop numerous times for the same and on each occasion I make time to answer all the questions, dispel all the myths... hell, offer free parts to get it back on the road..... FUBAR is a far more accurate term, Stooge a distant second, and I used to look at that title in a positive light... no longer. Thousands of hours have gone into this concept, 10's (YES, plural x ?) of thousands of dollars and for anyone to think it can be done on the cheap as this is being done is simply misinformed. Having been there and done the same 5-6 years ago on 'TMan's Mondial T. I count myself in that group but I paid dearly for an education, others have not, theirs came for free. Yes, that's right, 10K pieces is the minimum order and to get even a slight margin one must double that number. There are no less than a couple dozen variants of each Gold Connector part and each must be inspected and tested to determine which actually works.....Think I would do it for no reason, because they are pretty perhaps?
Greetings.. Ernie you seem to leave out alot of things that are necessary to do the entire change over. Pins, extractor tools, and a crimper is going to get you to a dead end.. Let us know how you make out with the rubber boots and installing them without Daves patented tools. You may also want to pick up the ecu plugs as well because they do not hold up with the extractor that well.. See the whole thing about Daves kit is that it includes everything, soup to nuts to complete the job and to do it right.. Your pins if equal to what is already on the car is going to bring right back to sq. one again after you unplug and plug a few times. You make it seem like Dave is selling $140.00 worth of stuff for a grand.. your wrong.. and way off .. Good luck with your install and you may want to say a small prayer that Dave will have the heart to help you out when your at your wits end.. R
Believe me, I'm with you. We do a lot of work with race cars. The vibration, the crashes. Components that work one time are useless. We need stuff that will work day in day out on the cars. And it took a lot of failure, time and expense to get us to where we are now. And it frustrates me when people look at our components and then wonder why our product costs what it does. So I know that you can't add up the cost of the components and then draw any conclusions about how much something should cost. I am a huge believer in supporting those people, like you, that do that build the foundation.
Dave, you and your efforts are very much appreciated!!! For some though you need to stop trying to confuse them with THE FACTS... their minds are made up. I have a sign hanging in the race shop... Good, Fast, Cheap, Pick TWO. Some folks never get it. always appreciative, always a fan, Rick
WTF? I generally stay out of these type of issues, but his one I just can't. I was absolutely incredulous when I saw this Thread. Dave Helms is the ONLY Professional Ferrari technician in the world who is actually taking the time to SOLVE the various issues which plague many Ferrari owners. The list of these issues is growing longer each day. I have been working with Dave over the past several years with regard to bringing many of these novel innovations to fruition. I am acutely aware of the tremendous amount of time, money, and effort he has put forth in developing these products, with absolutely NO monetary reward, only expenses.. Ernie you are well aware that Dave spend numerous hours with you on the phone answering questions and providing help on this exact same subject. You have repaid his professionalism and kindness by basically stabbing him in the back by trying to duplicate his Gold Connector Kit on-the-cheap and posting links to parts which you erroneously believe are contained in Daves Gold Connector Kits. Do you think an individual with Daves experience, ability, and intellect would not have already explored all the potential variables in a kit such as this? You could not begin to imagine how many different types of connectors, pins, boots, tools, etc., were purchased, tried, and discounted due to inferior results. I can tell you with 100% certainty there is NO possibility of you being able to duplicate Daves Gold Connector Kit. Moreover, I have filed a Utility Patent on said kit to prevent such potential subsequent infringement. Do you feel that Dave does not deserve to be partially reimbursed for his efforts? I believe this Thread is the final straw and Dave will no longer be involved in this area. Think about the loss for Ferrari owners. For example, SRIs ethanol-resistant fuel hose - the EPA is now allowing ethanol concentration to be increased to 15%.. Fabrication of the ethanol-resistant fuel pump covers, which currently dissolve in the fuel tank due to ethanol exposure. The 348 oil pump tensioner pad which is unavailable anywhere else. I could go and-and-on, but I am too disgusted. I am amazed at some of the individuals on FChat. To f*ck one of the only truly good, caring men in the Ferrari world is beyond my comprehension. Thanks.
I just can't help myself. I do have a very twisted sense of humor. I died laughing when I saw a garbage truck refuse to pick-up someone's garbage late in the day today (after I read this post the first time). Yes, they can do that here if you don't follow the rules. This post is akin to taking your full garbage can to the dump ..... to merely EXCHANGE your 'OLD' Garbage for 'NEW' Garbage. [que: "Burning Bridges" by the Mike Curb Congragation] Good luck Ernie. Jimmy the Greek says, Vegas has the odds at 100 to 1 that any of your future calls gets answered ..... by ANYBODY.
As for the questions about the better contact, and oxidation. Yes gold does not oxidize, and gold is a better conductor than tin, however.......... I did some thinking. The wires are what transfer the signal from the sensors to the ecu's. None of the wiring is gold/plated. The contact surface of the sensors is not gold plated, although there are sensor that do have gold plated male pins on the sensors. I found info about the contact surface of the Bosch coolant temp sensor used in my 348 (part number 0 280 130 026), and they are tin plated. You can read the pdf from Tyco here http://www.tycoelectronics.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/p316-90.pdf I couldn't find what plating they used for the rest of the sensors, but it's a very good probability they are also tin plated. Then the male pins on the Motronic ecu's are not gold plated. So if the male pins on the sensors transmitting the signal are tin plated, the wires carrying the signal from the sensor are copper, and the male pins on the ecu's are tin plated, how can the gold tip pins be any better. After all isn't it the wiring that does most of the work of carrying the signal to the ecu's, and the wire is nothing more that copper. So I did some research. There is the problem of what is called fretting corrosion. AMP, the very people who designed and manufacture the pins, did a study called "The Mateability of Tin to Gold, Palladium, and Silver". You can read the entire thing for yourselves http://www.tycoelectronics.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/p316-90.pdf What they found was that oxidation, and contact resistance, increase due to fretting corrosion. Fretting is when to things rub together and begin to wear. In a nut shell, the tin develops a microscopic layer of oxidation on the surface. When fretting occurs the microscopic layer of brittle oxidation gets broken up, and exposes new tin. The exposed tin develops a new layer of oxidation and the build up begins, which increases resistance. Because tin is soft the newly expose tin on both surfaces will mate, keeping contact. AMP found that tin-to-silver was just a little bit better than tin-to-tin. But that the degradation of tin-to-gold was worse than tin-to-tin. Taken from a portion of the last two paragraphs of the AMP study, it said: ", contact resistance increases (on the order of 5 times initial values) for the tin-to-gold and tin-to-palladium interfaces demonstrate that such combinations should not be encouraged for critical circuit applications in environments where fretting reactions are likely. The connector applications engineer should be aware of the problems that may arise when mating tin to gold, palladium, or silver, especially when fretting conditions are know to exist. Where fretting corrosion has been shown to be a problem, substituting another metal for one half of the tin-to-tin interface could worsen the situation." Keep in mind guys that this is directly from AMP, the people who actually designed and manufacture the pins. As a matter of fact AMP also put out another paper in 2004 called, "The Tin Commandments: Guidelines For The Use Of Tin On Connector Contacts" http://www.tycoelectronics.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/sncomrep.pdf Why you ask? Because if you read what they say in the #7 explanation it says, "7. Mating Of Tin Coated Contacts To Gold Coated Contacts Is Not Recommended Tin-to-gold interfaces are more susceptible to fretting corrosion related failures, and lubricants are not nearly as effective at stabilizing contact resistance as they are with tin-to-tin interfaces. Tin tends to transfer onto the gold surface which can ultimately lead to accumulation of tin oxide on the harder gold substrate. It is more difficult to disrupt the tin oxide on the harder gold substrate than it is to break through the tin oxide that forms directly over tin. The warning against mating tin with gold also applies to mating tin with palladium and its alloys because the fretting behavior of tin-to-palladium and its alloys is similar to that of tin-to-gold. This warning does not apply to the case of the tin-to-silver interface because its fretting behavior is similar to that of tin-to-tin." After I read through AMP's scientific findings, the actually engineers who design and manufacture the Junior Power Timer pins, and after THEY DO NOT recommend mixing tin-to-gold, and that tin-to-gold was WORSE that tin-to-tin, I am NOT going to go against what their scientific finds have shown. If anything I will be looking to find silver plated pins, and will use silver plated wire if I rewire the whole loom. But if you guys wanna keep swinging on Dave's nuts, swing away. I put up my postings to help out the 348 Brotherhood, and Ferrari owners in general. So if you want to get pissed at me for exposing the truth, then have at it. Just remember that this Stooge found and gave you guys the truth. I encourage you guys to read through the AMP/Tyco papers, and see for yourselves what they say. Now where did I put that tin foil hat?
Ernie, This is my father you are speaking about. Totally unacceptable and down right dirty. Not only are you speaking rudely about him, after all the help he has given you without asking for anything back, (yes, I answer the phones here) but you are attempting to destroy a family owned and operated business. Do you realize there are 3 family members at Scuderia Rampante Inc.? All of which include my father, my mother and myself. Please refrain from sinking so low and talking trash about my family. Thanks, Niki Helms
Niki, don't get your hopes too high. You are addressing a clueless, classless, brainless ass who is without the capacity to know it. He is the poster boy for what is wrong with this place.
Tin to Gold connections? Dissimilar metals. Electricity. More corrosion? No kidding. Even a failure in chemistry like me (twice) knows that. Do you honestly think Dave hadn't thought of that? He is an Engineer. He talks to other Engineers. Remember? Did ya ever think that Dave WASN'T COMPLETELY D-O-N-E YET? He has hinted many times there is more to come in many areas. This one too. DID YA THINK to A-S-K? Via PM or phone call? Damn, Man. Just Damn.
