Hi guys I'm a new subscriber to Fchat and wld like to congratulate you for this great site. I've had my 87 328 GTS (40K miles, UK specs)) for 7yrs and had recently been advised by my mechanic that the valve guides were shot as it was burning an abnormal level of engine oil, and he recommended that since he needs to take the engine out and take apart the "top" part of the engine to fix the problem, replace gaskets...so on I might also think about rebuilding the whole engine to include the "lower" part by replacing the piston rings as well. the engine is running quite strong (around 175 - 180 psi for all cylinders) but the thought is still tempting as I will probably never sell the car (i still haven't come across any car from any marque which has churned out a more apealing shape than the 308/328 line since) and like the idea of restoring some or all of the power of the car which might have been lost over the years, as the interior of the car has also been completely restored 2 years ago. I'm not a technical person (far from it) and do trust my mechanic generally but would like to have a second opinion from the experts on Fchat on the followinfg questions: (1) for the "complete rebuilt" being proposed that parts which are proposed to be replaced with new ones are the following: -complete gasket set -complete piston ring set for all cylinders -connecting rod bearing set -crankshaft bearing set -cam bearing -cam belt -brake hose It doesn't seem (to me at least) all that many parts are being replaced/overhauled for such a major endeavour. are there any other parts/work that should typically be replaced/looked at in conjunction with an engine overhaul? (2) while I have the engine out, what other services/parts/usual suspects (other than the last two items on the list above) should i be asking them to look into or replace in order to ensure that the car is restored to as perfect a condition as possible? I know these are probably rather foolish sounding questions from a layman but any input/insight from you experts on Fchat in this regard will be much appreciated. thx
hi, i am from canada and although i am a young ferrari mechanic i have a little bit of experience with this. When you do a valve job you put new seats in, valve stem seals valve springs, re grind the valves etc. This is going to get a lot of compression back that was lost as these parts are or may be worn. if your lower end is weak with new compression that is created it may crap out the lower end especially the rings. So for my 2 cents worth trust the mechanic and get the whole thing done. If your going to keep that car you don't want to having to be pulling the engine in a year two or 3 to fix the lower end b/c that would be a big waste of money.
thx for the advice you meant a valve job (ie top half of the engine) would also improve compression/power even the "lower" end is left as is without replacing the rings?
ya it will improve but the bottom end might not take the new compression as well so the rings may crap out. I would do a complete but its up to you.
There are a lot of experts here who have not yet chimed in and who can give you very good advice. Speaking as a non-expert, I hear that the bottom end of these engines are very strong with 100,000 miles not being out of the ordinary. They also seem to accept far greater power and torque from turbo-charging without the need for modification. So 40,000 seems a bit early for a complete re-build, more like time for a major service really. With a 'leak down' test you can find out where the leakage is occuring and if the piston rings are ok you could just do the heads and the full major service. You can have a good look at the bores while you are in there just in case. good luck
What is an abnormal amount of oil? Your 328's engine is relatively young with only 40k miles on it. Are you sure its the valve guides? Was a leak down test performed to check everything? Was the car a garage queen at some point in it's life? If so, it could be that the valve seals hardened and just they need replaced. By the way, the engine does not need to come out to replace the valve guides, and the bottom end will last well over 100k miles. It sounds to me like your mechanic knows that your not a technical person, and figures he can make an easy $10k by pulling your engine and rebuilding it.
haven't measured the engine oil burn rate scientifically but after filling up to max (while engine warm ) it would drop to below min. after about 200 miles. mechanic said valve guide the most likely suspect but can't be sure until they actually sees it. haven't performed a leakdown either but may be i should. performed a compression test and the numbers are qutie good (within the 175-180 range)the engine runs quite strong but with a very slight metal rattling noice when hot. was told that it is likely caused by worn bearings at the bottom part of engine. when i got the car about 7 years ago it was under 20K and now is 40K so while not driven as extensively as i had hoped not a garage queen either i would have thought. two of the cynlinders went dead about 3 years ago (sonething caused by fuel lines or something as i remember being told at the time) but were fixed and engine was fine since then. i think even i could apprecaite the fact that it is probably not necessary to do the bottom part at this stage and to be fair to my mechanic, he told me that as well, but had said that if i wanted to keep the car forever and we need to do the top part anyway it would be a good idea to do the complete job jsut to be sure and the car would run like new after all done and dusted. From a $ point of view i know it doesnt make sense as the outlay is substantial compared to the value of the car but it's just one of those things! I really love the shape and honestly cant think of any after that (before yes) which I desire more, including the new Fcars, so the urge to make the thing as perfect as possible is quite strong. I just hope that it wouldn't make it worse!
ft: I have 94K miles on my 328 and she is regularly driven. However I do not notice the "oil consumption note" (as stated to expect in the owner's manual: 0.5L per 600miles or something like that). I did add about 0.5L of oil after around 1.3K miles. Don't really notice any power issues but then again I don't have any other 328 to reference or compare. If and when you do decide to perform an overhaul, please let us benefit from your findings and post whatever you'd like to share. I, for one, would be very interested in what your mechanics find out about your engine.
I am not a mechanic, but I know some very good Ferrari mechanics who have told me that these lower ends extremely overbuilt for road cars are bullet-proof. I would find it very strange that a lower end rebuild would be needed after only 40k miles. Please get some other opinions.
pushed the button on the "top end" and need to decide on the "bottom end" soon. You experts out there pls pls chime in! also any guidance on the specific questions raised in my original post would be much appreciated!
I was in the same boat as you only difference being that my car is a 308GT4 with about 60kmiles on it and it was drinking oil and blowing smoke at the same time.I was also advised that even though it might just be a valve seal job it has the original sodium valves so I decided to replace them all.Also was advised that when returning top end pressure the bottom end would suffer.I didn't want to take any chances and didn't want to find out the hard way so I opted with the complete rebuild and am also upping the compression while I'm at it.I too will more than likely keep the car so I'll do it once and not have to worry about it for another 30years.I still haven't got the car back but hope to get it back within a month or two
I would be very surprised if the engine requires an overhaul at 40,000 miles, things to check first is to accurately check the oil consumption, carry out a leakdown test, and do you have any external oil leaks? If it's just the top end and valve stem oil seals / valve guides are faulty, they can easilly be replaced leaving the engine in situ - just remove the heads. Obviously check the condition of the valves, valve seats and springs when dismantled, but at 40,000 miles they ought to be okay.
OK here is what I know. I am rebuilding a 308 engine, bottom end is fairly similar if not almost identical to 328 I believe. My 79 308 with 73K miles here is what I found. Almost all of the valve guides need replacing they wear terribly, they are short and the metal is not hard, so I would replace them.) On the bottom end. Measure, Measure, Measure, only replace if necessary. If it ain't broken don't fix it. Most of these engines are good for 140K on the bottom end before the rings and or liners need to be rebored/ replaced. With 73K miles my liners still have over 50% of acceptable wear left on them in all cases, most have only 30% of the limit of wear(measured up and down the liner and in both the X and Y direction) And no doubt Ferrari have margin built into thise wear figures anyway!! There was no scoring in any liner or indication of any abnormal wear in any cylinder. I contacted a guy that rebuilds these engines regularly - his 2 cents was leave well and good alone, no need to touch it! So I say it again, if it ain'tt broken don't fix it, you could cause more problems! Measure, measure, measure and then decide what you want to do.
many thanks for the valuable comments everyone. my engine doesn't blow smoke (other than the cold start condensation) and has no external leaks. Qestion for tom: am sure this is a stipid question but I assume you had actualy taken the bottom end apart when you measured the liners and put them back together after confirming that they're ok? also my mechanic didn't mention anyting about doing anything to the liners, just replacing the piston rings. does that mean that he is not planning on doing a thorough job even if i decide to go ahead on the bottom end?
Replacing the piston rings can cause more problems than they cure unless you re-hone all of the cylinder liners at the same time. A perfectly tight engine can start burning oil in the bottom end if you don't hone and replace the rings at the same time. To rehone you need to remove all the liners / pistons unless you have a machine shop tool specifically for the 328 that torques the liners in place so you can hone with the liners in place but you still need to get the crank out and pistons (not many shops have these!) and you would really need a Ferrrai engine shop to do this!! Just replacing the rings is not a recommended option and probably a waste of money. You do not need to seperate the gearbox and diff to measure if the liners are worn/ check for broken rings this can be done just with the heads removed. Worst wear will typically be mid stroke, with less at top and bottom of stroke, this can be measured with the right tool with just the heads off. Let this be your guide to the need for a re-bore/ hone/ new rings etc. This can be done in about 30 / 60 mins if you know what you are doing. If you need to do liner or ring work you need to seperate the gearbox and sump from the crank. Easy job about 1 hour if you have the engine out, and assuming none of your nuts are siezed. Nothing worse than siezed nuts ! .......could not help but lower the tone of the thread!
I would leave well enough alone, and only do the top end. Unless, of course, your mechanic finds something gross when he opens up the engine.
succinct and useful advice! in any event i will take this opportunity to have an engine out major service anyway even as i'm leaving the bottom end intact, as this would be the first time in the last 7 years, so that the engine can be thoroughly cleaned and any loose ends tidied up. anything else i should be looking out for while the engine is out? oh how about the comment that the return of pressure in the top end may crap out the bottom end if not done at the same time? Maurice may be you also ought to rethink your decision to do the bottom end as well? or at least ask them to check and see if you really needed it?
How far do you want to go? You could look at replacing the water pump, thermostat, all the breather, oil, fuel & coolant, hoses. You may find it difficult to track down all the necessary hoses so I'd start looking for them if you want to go down this road. At least do the fuel hoses for peace of mind. Might as well get the alternator checked & tested while you have it out. Possibly take the clutch out & have a look at the wear on it - probably easier to dis-assemble whilst the engine is on the bench. Have a good look round the engine for oil leaks before you start & see if there are any other seals that need to be replaced. Since the engine is going to be out you could drop the oil pan off it & clean out any accumulated gunk. It would make good sense to give the engine bay a thorough cleaning while you have the motor out & you should strip the ignition system & test all the plug leads & at least clean up up the rotor arms & dizzy caps. I stripped the ignition on my 328 recently & its running much better for it. New camshaft oil seals & top end gaskets, belts, plugs, oil, fuel & air filters etc are a given. Lastly, have a good look underneath your expansion tank - they have a tendency to rust underneath where you can't normally see it. As long as its not gone too far its not hard to re-finish it. Plasticote BBQ paint makes a nice job of it! I.
relayed all the comments received here to my mechanic and his responses were as follows: (1) the reason he had suggested that i should look at the bottom end as well is based on the fact that (a) he is taking the engine out anyway and it would be a waste of opportunity not to do it, and (b) he once replaced the o-ring in the car due to leakage of engine oil into the transmission and he suspect that i had been driving the car for a period with insufficient engine oil which might have caused damage/wear in the bottom-end, and since there's no external leakage since it must be burning oil (2) while he could measure the liners with only the top-end taken apart he would not be able to examine the rings in detail without taking the bottom end apart as well, and if its apart there's no reason not to put new rings in (3) he will rebore the liners but only if there's significant damage. honing all cylinder liners would only serve to increase the diametre of the cylinders and that's not a good thing generally speaking and may cause further leakage unless bigger rings are put in (4) while he hasn't done a rebuild on a 328 engine he's done countless rebuilts on porche engines (used to be a proche mechanic) and the work/skill required is the same, and he needs no special "ferrari tools" to rehone the liners if the bottom end is taken apart same logic as with Maurice, "you probably don't NEED to do it but if you want it to be like new and last for another 30 years I highly recommend it" Any views?
As I said my car has higher mileage,was blowing smoke and chewing oil.We tore down the engine and some of the liners had some scores.Also found a few of the crank bearings had **** themselves.So the extra cost was to get a set of pistons and rings.I opted for Higher compression pistons to give me a bit more power as they were cheaper than oem and oem pistons aren't oversize.I know that when I'm finished I wont have to do it again for as long as I have the car.Sure I could of just did the top end but if something went wrong a few months down the track it would have been an expensive I told you so.Again this is my experience with my car with higher mileage and smoky engine so I did this for my own piece of mind.But if you really think that you wont sell the car and intend on keeping it then why not do the whole thing,If the finances permit.The way I see it is you will have to do it one of these days whether it be now or five years from now.It will probably be dearer five years from now if you include inflation.PS:As far as I know you do need a special plate to torque the liners if you hone them in situ
I assume that the special torque plate not required if he is taking the bottom end apart, which is what he is planning on doing? Maurice I'm drien by the same ethos as you and would happily cough up the $$$ if there are vast improvement on the car after the job. am just worried that it might get worse. you would be getting a new engine and which brea-in methodology do you subscribe to? the "Gun-it-like-I-stole-it" school of thought or "baby-the-engine" approach dictated by OMs?
I'll proberbly baby it for a while to let the rings bed in a bit but after that I'll be driving it like a bat out of hell.Where abouts are you located and what sort of money is your mech asking for for a rebuild.I've been quoted about AUD$15-16k(US$11500-12200) which includes 2nd gear synchro and a new clutch as the one thats on it is about 50% so its also getting done while I'm there.The only nasty surprise that we've found is I needed a new rear bank exhaust cam which I have sourced through Ferrari UK(Thanks Malcolm)Its just the time factor thats bugging me.Six months later and its still a few months away from completion
have you read that thread about engine run-in's which expoused a totally opposite view? I'm located in Hong Kong and the mechanic is quoting around HK$115K (around US$15k) to do the whole thing plus a complete respray. I expect the car to come back like new, or may be I should manage my own expectations so as not to be disappointed. also thinking about putting tubi exhausts on the car to improve sound. anyone has experience it with 328's?
I see no strong reason why fixing the heads would cause accelerated wear on the bottom end. If the valve stem seals are the cause of oil consumption then you probably wouldn't even see an issue on a leakdown test because the pressure leaks past the valve faces not the stem. I would suggest replacing the seals, regrinding the valves or replacing them and al the cam seals, belts etc. While you have the heads off, rotate the engine and look for bore scores/damage and measue diameters at mid stroke as suggested, if all looks OK, don't mess with it. By the way, the classic check for worn valve seals is to drive at a good speed with the car well warmed up then quickly pull your foot completely off the throttle and look in your rear view mirror, this will often show signs of blue smoke in this engine over run condition.
