Greetings! I have lurked on this board for a long time thinking that I would bite the bullet and buy one of these cars. I have stuck with the Pcars because they are fat friendly My best friend just purchased a 1987 328 GTS (against my advice). It has no service history. From the carfax report, it looks like it has basically been sitting since 1992. Maybe 1000 miles since 1992. It has about 24k miles on it. I told him not to buy a Porsche 911 with CIS injection because I didn't want to deal with that, so he bought a 328 with CIS injection... From what I have been able to learn, the water pump isn't working. He is going to have it shipped and then flat bed towed to my house. I wanted to create a thread in here because I would be really grateful for assistance while I try to bring this car back to drivability status. Here is my plan of action: Drain all the fluids Pull the engine and transmission Inspect and clean the engine bay and motor/trans/clutch belts/tensioners/sensors/hoses/valve adjustment (Seals. I need to figure out how many and what I can replace with the engine and transmission out of the car) Coolant hoses/flush radiator/install new water pump replace fuel filter and have the gas tank professionally cleaned pull brake calipers off and rebuild with new seals inspect pads and rotors inspect wheel bearings Clean all electrical harness plug pins If he has the budget, I would like to replace the alternator while I am at it. Would that be a good idea? How much of a pain would it be to replace it with the engine in the car? If this thing has sat for a very long time, what can I do to try to clean out the internal gunk that I can't get to? Would it be okay to seafoam it? Should I do a couple of oil changes changes (if so, how many miles apart?). Any advice or input would be very helpful. I can't lie, I am excited for him. I am also excited to get my grubby little hands on a 328 to wrench on too. thanks!
That seems a bit radical for a car that has not yet been fully diagnosed. Is there a specific issue that pulling the engine will address? I love CIS. To me it is marvelous,(almost) indestructible system one step removed from carburetors. I love that it is a mechanically and hydraulically controlled with no computers (at least my car's K-Jet basic). It is set-and-forget and a lot simpler than other mechanical fuel injection systems such as kugelfischer.
The alternators are very reliable. I wouldn't touch it unless you have evidence of trouble. Since 1986 I can count the number I have had to fix on one hand. No water pump available now is as good as the one on the car. Rebuild it and update it to a modern one piece seal. Cleaning the tanks seems premature. When the crossover hoses are off for replacement you can see inside enough to know if that is needed. It seldom is. The tanks are aluminum so they do not create their own debris like steel tanks. As already said, CIS is a simple robust system. Some components are no longer available but rebuilding is if required.
I have fat arms and is easier to work on that way. I figured it would make it easier to inspect the condition/replacement of things like hoses/plugs/valve adjustment/water pump, etc. I am going for the "go ahead and refresh everything" so the car is solid. I guess my mindset was taking the engine/trans out would be the best way to fully diagnose the car. If it were my car, I would rip it completely apart and spend the next few months going through it on the weekends. I am a computer guy so I like the simple DME Bosh system in the 84-89 911s. I am not saying CIS is junk, I just find EFI easier to deal with on the Pcar. He originally wanted a 911 so I said no CIS since I will be doing the wrenching on it. Maybe I will learn to love CIS?
Thanks for the info Rifledriver. I did see a tech article in the past on rebuilding a water pump. I will try to find it.
Yeah I wouldn't pull the engine either.. Pull the rear deck lid and rear inner wheel liners. If you have a lift available this will be easy. Would replace, Belt/bearings Replace all fuel lines / coolant lines Change fluids and throw a new battery in it. Larry Fletcher can help with any CIS issues including total rebuild Welcome! And Congrats to your friend on the purchase!
What is wrong with CIS? I have owned 4 cars with it since 1985 (still have 3 of them) and it is the only part of the mechanics I have never had issue with
First, I am NOT a trained tech. However, I have owned a 328 for over 10 years now and I have been listening to and learning from owners and trained techs for even longer. And at some point patterns start to emerge. So to echo what others have said, there generally isn't a need to remove the engine to do all this work. If you want to because that is your personal preference, well, OK. But just understand, pulling a 328 engine to do work on it (including belts and valve work and all of it) is NOT SOP. Do the following: * Drain and replace all the fluids (oil, transmission oil, gas, brake fluid, coolant). * Replace the brake pads. Do the calipers actually need a rebuild? Not so sure. If they are rusting or are stuck, then yes. But if there is no signs of rust and they operate smoothly, then consider moving on. Rotors may have to be turned. * Inspect the Master Cylinder. It should be OK, these things are pretty solid. * Replace the timing belts (2) and the tensioners (2). This will also require new belt cover gaskets (2). You might want to consider Hill brand tensioners. * Replace the accessory belts (WP belt, alt. belt, AC belt, any others?) * Adjust the valves. This will also require new cam gaskets (circular 'O' rings at the end of the cams, 4) and cam cover gaskets (2). * Also you might want to consider drilling drain holes in the "lower" cam pockets (2). There is a thread here somewhere about how to do it. Even Ferrari factory shops are performing the "fix" as part of their SOP. * There aren't too many sensors on the car. A rpm sensor at the flywheel, an air flow sensor, a thermo-couple at the front radiator, maybe one or two more. Personally I would not bother doing anything to these sensors unless they show a fault. They can fail but not very commonly. * Shift shaft seals are likely leaking. If they are, replace them with Unobtanium Supply shift shaft seals. This will require removing the transmission floor panel which will require a new gasket. * Inspect the oil radiator and the large braided house out of it to the engine block. Sometimes it can leak. * Fuel hoses. There are three to consider, one at the crossover between the two saddle tanks, one out of the fuel pump to the tank, and one at the filler hole. The first two should be replaced period. I like Scuderia Rampante Innovations fuel hoses. Perhaps over-engineered but we are talking about fuel here. Not sure the tanks need to be professionally cleaned. The main thing to worry about is alcohol separating from the gasoline but once that is out of the tank, not sure there is anything that needs cleaning. * Coolant hoses. At least inspect with a heat cycle test and see how they hold up. If they hold the pressure and high temps then consider moving on. Maybe someone will just say replace anyway. There are two at the radiator (in and out flow) and one cross over hose behind an underside panel just behind the front wheels. Any others?) * Water pump, yes, rebuild if needed. * Fan operation, test to make sure the fans come on at ~175-180 F. If they don't then test the electrical continuity of the thermo-couple screwed into the bottom of the radiator. If it works then something else is at fault (relay, fuse board, wiring, bad fan motors). There is a way to by-pass the thermo-couple and run the fans in an "always on" mode to test the functionality of the fan motors. * Replace the spark plugs. * Inspect the wheel bearings. They might need to be replaced. If not, move on. I guess we're getting to a point where all these cars will need new wheel bearings at some point. Does this car need them to be replaced now? * Inspect suspension bushings (at the anti-roll bar and at the linkages). I suspect they will show some cracking. At some point they will need to be replaced. Is this car at that point? Maybe, maybe not. * Inspect the electrical connections but in all likelihood you won't need to replace or even clean them. They aren't as finicky as with later models (348/355). * Inspect electrical functionality (windows, interior services, interior-exterior lighting, power mirrors, etc.) The real thing you are evaluating is the functionality of the fuse board which can have structural issues which cause electrical faults. If you do find a non-functioning item you may have to remove the fuse board and inspect it directly. They can delaminate, it happens. But if everything works, move on. * Inspect AC, does this car still have R12 freon? Personally I would recommend keeping it but that does require a certification to handle R12. * CIS-Please, do not modify or replace this system. It it a rather simple system and it works well with the 328. Yes, it might be a little sluggish compared to modern systems but man, it works so damned well I would highly suggest not messing with it. Also the service intervals listed out in the Owners Manual is a good way to go through the inspection routine. It's rather thorough. Good luck and take your time. No need to perform work on things that don't actually need it. -F
My car was left sitting in a garage for a couple of years, being driven only two weeks per year when I was working abroad...and the only item that needed replacing after its resurrection....was the alternator... just saying...
@furmano, Thank you for the detailed reply. That information is very helpful. It was exactly what I was looking for. I swear I am not bashing CIS injection. I am coming from the Porsche world. I have an 84 911 which is the first year of EFI. I simply told my friend that I didn't want to deal with CIS injection (I have read waiting up to 8 months for parts to be rebuilt). I know the EFI system on the 911 so I am comfortable with it. If I was going to be helping my friend keep a 911 up, I just wanted him to buy an 84-89 911. I just thought it was funny after talking to him about that, he buys a Ferrari with CIS.
CIS had it's moment, and thank god that moment is over with. It's not a bad system, it's not a simple one either. The biggest issue is it's all designed around the specific gravity of pure gasoline, something we do not have anymore. Ethanol in fuel will continue to corrode and eat away at the internals, unlike EFI it has no way to compensate for ethanol in fuel nor can it be easily adjusted to handle performance changes made to an engine. The complexity only got worse as it evolved KE-Jet... like the no longer available carbon tracks for idle on the metering plate.. And I haven't even touched on throttle response yet.. I'm not advocating that everyone go out and dump CIS, just very glad that it was superseded by EFI. I've also done back to back dyno runs on CIS to EFI, EFI on a 308 will increase power by an avg of 25Hp across the curve, that's a 15% increase in power simply by moving to EFI. All this from a guy who's DD has CIS, KE-jetronic nonetheless too! In CA where the fuel eats everything and pees water into the tank.
CIS was a cheap way to get cars to pass smog. It was a huge improvement over carbs but as Scott said not as good as EFI. Its inability to cope with a fuel it was not designed for is real but not a huge problem. Its really does not like water so be careful where your gas comes from but its biggest issues are misdiagnosis and not understanding the entire system as implemented on the Ferrari's and making them work correctly to start with. We have a 328 and a TR, both with CIS and I have no intention of ever changing that. It has been and will continue to be a good and reliable system. I have been dealing with Fuel Injection Corporation for a very long time and know the owner. They have done a great job in repairing components in the few times it has been required on customer cars.
Furmano, that check list was phenomenal and just what a newbie Ferrari owner needed. I own a Mondial 3.2, so it applies there as well. Thanks! BTW to the OP, Dave Helms at Scuderia Rampante is a great resource for info & sells very high quality components for our cars.
Brian, then I'm sure you also have read my one piece seal upgrade procedure I posted in 2011 and performed with success several times since back then. But I'm always willing to learn. Therefore I look forward to hearing from you about what my mistakes are. Or asking differently. Where can we find a 'good article' about rebuilding a water pump? Best from Germany Martin
No I have not. I say that because I saw so many train wrecks from people trying to make the conversion and giving up. I have not considered not installing a one piece seal a second rate repair and am not surprised you have done them the good way. Sorry I missed it.
Here you go! http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/328021-308-w-pump-altering-design-old-new.html Best from Germany Martin
CIS had treated me so well over the 13 years I was driving with it (beginning with my first car at 16 in 1984) that when time came to finally bring home a 308 in 1997, I specifically avoided looking at carbed cars. I turned down one that, to this day, is still the best sounding 308 I have every been around anywhere anytime. I was just afraid of the carbs and finding a shop that could set them up properly around here. I had 100,000 100% trouble free miles on CIS and it appeared to me that it was a system that really never needed to be bothered with, based on just my experience. It seemed to be the safest way to go. I love my QV but 20 years later, I really wish I bought that 78 model. I actually bumped into the owner of that car at the Mitty last month (Ric Schumann from FAF).
Ansa. The car was "illegal as hell" (Ric's exact words). FAF bought it from an auction and I think it was a Euro import. I have video of it at TigPrix and Road Atlanta from back in 92. In one part, he screams by and you can even hear someone comment on how good that car sounds. Awesome car. He sold it to someone in North or South Carolina I believe. About 1998 or 99, sometime around then.
The 2V, the QV is a couple more tickling a 30 Hp increase and the 3.2 is a bit more then that topping out around +35. The biggest gains are from removing the air restriction of the metering plate, so an increase in throttle response and more air into the engine. Then with the ability to set the ignition timing as needed and fuel as well it really changes the characteristic of the engine. Wakes it up! really. The down side is cost, a top notch EFI setup will run close to 10K installed, sure it's possible to do it on the cheap but that has it's downsides as well. EFI will also increase the MPG, not a massive amount but it also tends to be offset by the heavier foot liking the response and power increase, but for cruising it will get better mileage over CIS.
I played with a 81 that had EFI and I was amazed at the difference between it and my car. The biggest difference was moving away from a dead stop. My car (and every other stock 308 I have driven) has a bit of a sluggish moment, for lack of a better way to describe it. It is subtle enough that you really pay it no attention until you drive something that doesn't have it. That 81 didn't AT ALL. Let the clutch out and it pulled hard that instant. I couldn't believe the difference. If I wanted to put EFI on my QV, who do I call?
There is no plug and play 'kit' at the moment for EFI conversions, it requires professional installation or a patient and well versed DIY'er. It's not difficult per say just tedious and requires a basic knowledge of electrical wiring. The 'tune' or map for the engine also needs to be done and once again it's not hard but requires some knowledge on engine tuning and the software or EFI system being used. If you're interested in the setup that I use for Nicks Forza you can drop me a PM. I'm fussy about looks so the EFI setup I developed uses hard lines that look like the CIS layout. I've also moved over to COP "coil on plug" that cleans up the engine bay as there is no longer any spark plug wires roaming about.
