Hi all - did a search, but couldn't find a conclusive answer. Earlier I checked my oil and was down to just below the 'MIN' line on the stick. So I added a quart, ran the car 5 minutes, shut her down and checked the oil about 5 minutes later. Hmmm. Still just above MIN on the stick. So I added some more and repeated. Now it was 3/4 of the way up, about 1/4" below the MAX line. So I left it. But I just checked it now, and now it's COVERING THE MAX LINE on the stick! After 3 checks (all cold), the oil level tops out just past the X in MAX. So my questions: 1. Why such a disparity between hot and cold readings? I've never had it this extreme in any car before. My '86 328 is surely a wet sump - and 5 minutes should be plenty to get a good drain down, shouldn't it? Or is there some inherent Ferrari thing that gives different hot and cold readings? 2. I have not run it with the oil level as it now is. But is it really too much? Should I drain some out? I seem to recall a pump you could stick down the stick tube to pump small amounts out, rather than trying to do it with the oil drain. Should I do this or not worry about it? Thanks for any wise replies Jedi
Man, are you trying to get RD riled up so soon after he comes back? The owners manual is correct, check it right after shutdown. After its shut off oil drains down from the cooler, oil galleries, filter etc., and it can increase the level substantially. For this reason, never trust a cold reading unless its really down. As long as you have oil at or above the full line when cold before start up your okay to start. But if your not absolutely sure of the true level, shutdown and check it before driving off. best to check it after a run and top it off. Then you know its full. Unless there is a lake of oil under the car of course.
Thanks Artvonne - that was my suspicion. I'll drive it tomorrow and recheck after shutdown again and have a strong feeling it will be right in the zone as it was. Just want to make sure, ya know? Thanks Jedi
Just follow the instructions in the manual with one caveat. The 328 will starve so easily in a right hand turn it isn't funny. I wind up with zero oil pressure on almost any freeway on ramp. It has long been SOP on 328 to overfill by 1 quart. Really,really bad sump design.
Brian, I saw your comment on the poor sump design of the 328. Would that not also apply to the 308s? Or are they different in the bottom?
If I remember correctly, manual states to check the oil level 15 minutes after sht down. If you stick to that, measurements are quite consistent, or at least this is my experience during my 5 years ownership. Ciao Eugenio
It does not take 15 minutes for hot motor oil (regardless of viscosity) to return to the sump, regardless of whatever the manual says. Even 140 gear lube would be down within seconds. On a warm engine you will have a full sump (and hence a full up stick) before you could shut off the motor, get out of the seat, open the lid and pull out the stick. Even if you ran. So there is more than enough time to wipe it off and poke it back in to read it. Ever see old film footage of race teams checking oil at pit stops? They sometimes had the stick out before the engine stopped turning. They wipe it off quick and poke it back in and immediately read it. I can just imagine 15 minute pit stops at LeMans while they wait around to check the oil, lol.
Not with mine. Right after the engine is turned off I have pulled the stick only to see no oil on it at all. Wait about 3 minutes and there is some on the very end. Wait 5 to 10 minutes and it is up to the minimum level mark. Wait 15 minutes and it is up ot the full mark. Wait longer and the level keeps going up until it is about 2 inches above the full mark.
So I guess I understand now why I kept finding inconsistent answers in my initial search!! Speaks to that old adage - ask 3 people their opinions and get 6 different answers So I'll keep experimenting with hot, cold, 15-minutes, 5-minutes, and whatever variables and hopefully come up with a system that works. I'll start with an oil change with the exact amount added and work it all out from there. Thanks guys for all the valuable tips - at least now I am not worried I'm over full! And also not freaked out that sometimes when I check it too soon, there isn't anything on the stick at all, but later appears to be full. Jedi
wait.... don't forget to listen to at least one rousing chorus of pete seeger singing "kumbyah". by that time you'll get a good sample on your dipstick. remember.... these engines are built by commie pinkos.
The oil in my 308 will gradually rise on the stick. I know because I have checked it evey five minutes after shut down to see what would happen. At 15 minutes I was right at the full mark. I go by the manual myself.
Not a thing. I just want to sort out the various observed levels at various temps & times. That's all. No thing. I'm a curious person. Jedi
Maybe RD can explain why there's such a difference in the manuals between the carb'd cars and injected cars with regards to checking the oil? . . no one else has and I don't understand it from an engineering POV. What is wrong with following the manual if you drive these cars "the way they were meant to be driven" IMO is you will blow the motor to bits even with that upgraded baffle that everyone thinks is so great . .. someone was flapping about it to me at the Italiano saying how some guy gets his 308 on 2 wheels he drives so aggressive and doesn't have starving problems .. I responded with "getting a car on 2 wheels is not how you go fast . . . his car ain't setup right" . Not looking to start trouble . . just I know RD should have a logical explanation for this . . . I've commented before that if you fill the engines like the carb cars when you shut the engine down the level will go pretty darn high after sitting over night to where it might leak out of places (like porosity on the timing cover) that would bother a q-tip owner but not a racer . As some of you know I let just about anyone drive my car with the exception of some guys at the P club I run with who I'd be concerned about starvation issues 'cause they're better drives than me . . . right now I measure about one qt over immediately after shut down . .. that's the only way it won't starve with street tires pulling close to 1g after heavy braking and I don't see frothing so what's the problem? FWIW too I wanted to compare where people's dipsticks were with the engine's running between carb and injected carbs . .. like checking a dry sump kinda just for comparison purposes. I'm just sharing my experience here . . . go ahead and call me stupid . . just have got tired of looking at the oil pressure gauge when I'm supposed to be looking past the apex cheers
In 1980 when the 308i's had a very severe oil burning problem it was originally blamed on owners not being able to read a dipstick. At the time Ferrari went thorugh all sorts of finger pointing (sound familiar?) and experimentation with different methodology and I suspect it was at that time found that there is a huge difference in level on the stick depending on how and when it is done. I suspect the manuals were changed as a result of all that. It is really a shame all the 308/328s were not dry sump because they shure would have benefitted from it. When they were built it was not as big an issue as it is now because of the tire quality we have. It was so bad a few years ago we were blowing about a motor a year at the Virginia City Hillclimb.
I've worked on something but it's nothing like the factory version which I'd consider trying to duplicate since I've got some repor with a dry sump pump manufacturer . . I think it'd be really cool to use the stock section for the pressure section since it's gear driven and use a chain to just drive the scavenge sections like Ferrari did . .. the design I have requires a whole new timing cover and the pump sticks out the front of the engine . .. I have it driving off of gears instead of a chain but I lost momentum on the project since the baffle works with an extra qt without slicks . .. and I want a cage with slicks these days
duplicating it would be a cool Fchat community project .. if such a thing exists? one of you guys that luvs doing solids can model it all and make prints . . I'll make everything and interface with the pump guy. there's some pics on here of the factory setup which I hadn't seen when thinking about if before . . I just had the manual exploded view. and we have our resident experts who know these parts. just a thought . . I'd absolutely dig one and there's got to be others who would and what I designed is only for hardcore track and looks that way . . . we could make this look practically factory from the outside 'cause I think we can modify the block and timing cover pretty easily . . the tensioner arrangement I didn't finish but there's pics now. cheers edit: one of the shops that checked out my system wanted a factory looking system for his customers . . my design has way too much Earl's line and fittings for these guys .. as a boy there was no such thing .. use to make me drool . . actually still does
That is a conversion package that has commercial value. Someone should put together a very nice tidy package and sell it. I would push them here if it was well done and was done to look like the Italians did it and not Chip Foose.
here's a few thoughts I've had about it with regards to it being a kit and doing the way Ferrari did it: 1. the block will have to be tapped somewhere to mount the pump and run the lines thru 2. the timing cover would have to be modified for the lines . . . at first I didn't like the idea of modifying that part but you get the pressure section that's gear driven . . other thought is make a basic timing cover and run all three sections inside off a chain but some people do not like chains .. think all the sections are chain driven in the new cars aren't they? 3. the crank drive timing gear would have to be machined down and new sprocket made for the chain to run the scavenge pump section (or all sections) and hopefully there's room behind the stock "non dry sump" timing cover for the chain and tensioner . . . we can probably tell this from the pics that got posted. some parts would have to be exchanged or machined by someone .. . I don't want to get into the highly profitable and lucrative biz of making aftermarket Ferrari parts right now .. .. would do it for myself and just share though 'cause I think it should be done and I've already got a pump guy that can make something up the size of the Ferrari part. thoughts on #2 especially?
I have worked on factory dry sump cars and am familiar with how they were done. Buying a bunch of F40 parts and fabbing some stuff would be nice buy very spendy. Put a gilmer drive on the front, maybe put the pump above the alternator, use a tiny ND alternator to make more space. Poke a hole behind the alternator for the fittings like Ferrari did. Leave the original pump and plumb a supply to it through the side as well. I would have to sit down and look at one and think about it a bit but something like that should work. I happen to have an original dry sump block and front cover but that front cover would be hard to replicate and I think an F40 cover might be expensive, but then again maybe not.
