328 oil temp switch question | FerrariChat

328 oil temp switch question

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by SeattleM5, Jul 11, 2009.

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  1. SeattleM5

    SeattleM5 Formula 3
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    Jul 9, 2006
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    Ettore Palazzo
    First of all, thanks to everyone on the board for their help up to this point, especially Rifledriver! A while back I posted regarding some abnormal frequency valve duty cycle measurements in the context of a slight miss at idle on my 86' 328 (http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247888). I was able to narrow down the issue to the oil temp switch. After much research here, I learned that when cold (<25 deg C) the oil temp switch is supposed to be open (ie no continuity) and when warm (>25 deg C) it closes "effectively completing the circuit to ground to adjust mixture accordingly." I found that my oil temp switch was faulty (always open regardless of temperature). Jumping the oil temp switch immediately resulted in a correction of the open loop frequency valve duty cycle to 55% and the miss at idle resolved. I ordered a new temp switch from Ricambi part #115652, #18 in the following diagram: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=2397. Unfortunately, the switch that arrived seems to work in the reverse of what it is supposed to. I.e when cold (<25 deg C) it is closed (0 ohms between the poles of the switch) and when warm (>25 deg C) it is open (infinite resistance between the poles of the switch). I would greatly appreciate some advice from the experts on this one. What is the oil temp switch really supposed to do warm vs. cold? I will send Daniel a message at cambi as well and see what he says. As always, thanks for the help
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 Steve Magnusson, Jul 11, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2009
    The labeling of the oil temp switch on the schematic in your OM (page 73 in OM 396/85) and looking at how it functions to disable the air injection system if the oil temp is "cold" (text on page 72) indicates that the switch you received is correct -- i.e., if the switch is below 33 deg C, the contacts should be closed, and if the switch is above 57 deg C, the contacts should be open (and in-between its state is dependent on where it was last). When you "jump" this switch closed, it "tells" the ECU: "I'm cold, so default to a fixed FV duty cycle".

    Are you still getting an unusual FV duty cycle with the (single wire from the) O2 sensor unplugged at warm idle (when the oil temp switch is open)? If so, the water thermoswitch has the same logic (cold=closed and warm=open) so you might just try unplugging it (simulating the correct warm, open state) to see if that has any effect on FV duty cycle at warm idle.

    When you plug the O2 sensor back in at warm idle and make mixture screw adjustments, does the FV duty cycle change at all?
     
  3. SeattleM5

    SeattleM5 Formula 3
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    Hi Steve, thanks for your help. In trying to sort this out, I spent a lot of time looking at the schematic on page 73 that you referenced as well as the full 328 wiring diagrams. I wasn't smart enough to decipher exactly what the switch was supposed to do at various temperatures. Several posts here including one from Carl Rose (http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36950 post #8) suggested that the switch is open below 25 deg C and closed greater than 25 deg C. I think the temperatures of 33 and 57 deg C are for the water temperature switch (OM page 73, figure 65, item L). The oil temp switch (item G in the figure) has the following temperatures by it (25/15 deg C).

    At warm idle and O2 sensor disconnected I get a fixed duty cycle measurement of 74%. When I jump the oil temp switch w/ the o2 sensor still disconnected I get a fixed duty cycle measurement of 55% which is closer to the apppropriate 50% fixed duty cycle that I've seen quoted for open cycle measurements. I'll try unplugging the water temp switch next and see what happens w/ the FV duty cycle measurements and report back. Thanks again
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #4 Steve Magnusson, Jul 12, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
    Of course, you are right -- I wrongly substituted the numerical values from the water temp switch specs when typing my post.

    Although closing the oil temp switch gives you a more reasonable FV duty cycle, I don't think that this absolutely "proves" that the logic should be should be the other way around. If you look at that schematic, you will also see that when the WOT switch is closed (the SR wire side in the throttle microswitch assembly "M"), this also puts a ground signal on the same line that the oil temp switch does when it is closed -- i.e., in both cases, the ECU goes "dumb" (open-loop) and just puts out a fixed FV duty cycle, and the relay "C" actuates -- which turns the air injection system "off" (by leaving the electrovalve "I" unactuated regardless of the water thermoswitch state). If you did use an oil temp switch with the logic that Carl stated, I believe the FV duty cycle would just always be stuck at the fixed value when warm -- the car could actually run OKish in that state when warm as it is similar to a K-Jet without Lambda situation (but the air injection system would have inverted behavior when the water is cold -- i.e., running when the oil is really cold and the water is cold, not running when the oil is a little warm and the water is cold, and not running when the water is warm).

    Do check your water thermoswitch, as if is has failed, and is always (wrongly) closed, one symptom is that the air injection system would also remain "on" during warm running (if the oil temp switch and WOT switch are open). I know that you reported finding a bad component that was causing this problem (and your "lean" prior condition at the tailpipes), but this is maybe another clue that the water themoswitch is kaputt.
     
  5. SeattleM5

    SeattleM5 Formula 3
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    Steve, many thanks for taking so much time to think this through with me. So I tested the water temp switch and it works as it should. Using a temp sensor on the expansion tank, the water temp switch opens right at 57deg C. I did some more testing and made an interesting discovery . . . When testing the coolant temp switch per the K-Jet Electrical Test Procedure, service bulletin 80-29 (back probing pins 5 and 7 on the jetronic ECU connector) I get 0 ohms at water temp <54 deg C per spec, however, at water temp > 54 deg C I still have continuity w/ 44 ohms of resistance rather than the infinite resistance that it should be. So even though the water temp switch is opening at the appropriate temperature, the ECU does not appear to see it that way. Following the fuel injection wiring diagram I tested all of the connections involved with the water temp switch and I found that the electrovalve for the air injection system (328 parts table 9, #2) has the same internal resistance between the electrical connections (44 ohms). When the electrovalve is disconnected the appropriate infinite resistance is achieved back at the ECU connector (Pins 5/7). I'm wondering if this could be the problem?
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 Steve Magnusson, Jul 12, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
    Almost sorry to hear your water thermoswitch is OK as that would've been the easy fix ;)

    Unfortunately, I think F mangled the test procedure, and you are getting the right result (for the given test conditions). When the injection ECU connector is unplugged, I think there is still a path from pin 5 to pin 7 thru the coil in the electrovalve and the heater in the O2 sensor as I highlighted in green in this jpeg:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Consequently, under the test conditions given in SB 80-29 (key "off" and ECU unplugged), I think, when measuring the resistance between pin 5 and pin 7 in the harness connector, you should measure the resistance of the electrovalve coil + the resistance of the O2 heater (not infinity) when the engine is warm and the water thermoswitch is open. I just measured the resistance of my O2 heaters (a couple hours after shutoff so they are still a little warm) and got ~4 ohms. At room temp, their resistance may be even lower, but the value is already pretty small compared to the electrovalve. You might try unplugging your 2-pin O2 heater (and plugging the electrovalve back in), and repeat the 5-to-7 resistance test and see if you do get infinite ohms when warm and the water thermoswitch is open (although if the oil switch is cold/closed, I think you still wouldn't get infinite ohms, but rather electrovalve coil + relay C coil).

    On a side note, I thought the electrovalve coil resistances were more on the order of ~150 ohms (but that's a vague, vague recollection and could easily be wrong), but really don't know if 44 ohms would cause a mis-detection of the water thermoswitch being open at the ECU. At warm idle (with the O2 single wire unplugged), you could just unplug the electrovalve coil (since the electrovalve is unenergized during warm running anyway) and see if it has any effect on the FV duty cycle. Other than that, I'm running out of ideas :(
     
  7. SeattleM5

    SeattleM5 Formula 3
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    Thanks for highlighting the schematic, that explains the resistance readings I was getting at the 5,7 pins. Steve you were right on regarding unplugging the 2 pin O2 sensor heater wires. Even though the car was cold, I simulated an open water temp switch by simply unplugging one of the water temp switch connections, then I unplugged the 2 pin O2 sensor heater wires and rechecked the 5/7 pin jetronic ECU connector resistance and I got infinite ohms. Tomorrow I'll try measuring FV duty cycle with single wire of O2 sensor and electrovalve unplugged afte the car is warmed up. Also corresponded with Daniel at Ricambi and he'll be confirming appropriate oil temp switch operation. I'll report back when new info is available.
     

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