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328 speed shifting

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Fred2, Apr 11, 2005.

  1. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    Jan 2, 2005
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    We had the chance to drive the "new" 328 for a about 150 miles on Sunday (Yea !!!)

    On it's initial cruise, it reminded me alot of the 20 year old morocycles I used to buy, these were in dire need of having the control cables cleaned and lubed.

    While I expect the 1-2 shift to take about and hour, the 2-3, and 3-4 shifts were only marginally faster. It seems to me, that the linkages are in dire need of a cleaning and lubricating. (they feel like they have a fair amount of drag, even when warm)
    The problem is, where are they?

    Is the shifter supported in the tunnel in a place that needs to be lubed? is there any place to see and exploded view of the linkages in question?

    I have lubed the clutch cable where it goes into the floor by the pedals, and the throttle where it attaches to the throttle body. This has resulted in improved performance of these components. I think that a proper cleaning and lubing of the controls will make the car feel like new.
     
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  3. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    Dude...the 328 is NOT designed for speed shifting unless you have an unlimited budget.

    Take your time, enjoy the snick-snick sound, and save your equipment...
     
  4. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    There's a 328 service manual & a 308 parts manual you can download here:
    www.ferrari.jenkins.com

    It will show the shift linkage.

    About the only points that you can lube are where the shift shaft is supported, and the pivot points for the shift lever all of which are inside the console. They're not grease fittings, just places where a squirt or 2 of oil, & a smear of grease will help. Could take the front support apart, clean out the old grease & re-lube it w/white lithium grease.

    Remove the shift gate, pull out the ashtray & remove a couple of screws & the console top will lift up & to the driver's side. You'll be able to see where the shaft is supported, just behind where the shift lever connects to it.

    Also at the back of the console there's a seal where the shaft goes thru the body. Again, a bit of white grease won't hurt.

    However, it may well be that the car's got new shift shaft seals in the sides of the sump. They drag a bit until they take a set around the shaft. Just have to live with them for a thousand miles or so.
     
  5. awatkins

    awatkins Formula Junior

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  6. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

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    3X8 shifters are not slick. Some are better than others, but speed shifts are out. Take your time rowing through the gears or you will be buying a very expensive trans rebuild.

    Dave
     
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  8. PerryJ

    PerryJ Formula 3

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    none should ever take an hour to reach normal oper. maybe 5-10 mins max.
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    It ain't no Hewland.
     
  10. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    Thans for the insight here. We are not looking for Full Throttle upshifts, but a reasonable smooth 3-4 and 4-5.
    As a reference, I have heard 18 wheelers that make quicker shifts than this car wants to (esp 1-2)

    Given the the car has only about 20K miles and is very clean, I have a feeling that the grease in the linkages has either dried out or been "detailed" out of existance.

    I have checked the links at Jenkins (thanks ! ). I would like to clean and lube the throttle linkage. How does this puppy come out?
     
  11. PerryJ

    PerryJ Formula 3

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    a 328/308 should shift almost a quick as you can physically shift. It's sounds like something needs attention.

    You might want to changing the gear oil to a syth (redline)
     
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  13. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    John,

    It looks like Redline makes a few gear oils that would work, is there a consensus for the 328 (Street use only)? I was leaning toward the MTF.
    The Specification #s in the owners manual do not match the Redline classifications for the fluids.

    In filling the trans/diff, should I assume that the two are connected?
    The owners manual says to fill them seperatly, but I think I read somewhere that you fill the upper one till it runs out the lower fill hole.
     
  14. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

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  15. PerryJ

    PerryJ Formula 3

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    By far the consesus is Redline 75W-90NS (make sure to get the NS)

    It's what most people here use and I have never heard of a complaint with it. It made a HUGE difference in shifting my car, I can shift into 2nd even right after startup now :D
    As far as it not matching specs. keep in mind it's a 20 yr old car, and oils have changed alot since then ;)


    and yes it's a typo should be.....

    www.ferrari.jenkins.org

    As far as filling tech, check here...........
    http://ferrari.jenkins.org/books/308QV_328_workshop.pdf
     
  16. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    You don't like the classic

    WAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaa c l u n k - c l u n k WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 1-2 shift? :D

    I have some sort of Royal Purple in mine, works well. I can find the paperwork if you want to know the exact blend.
     
  17. PerryJ

    PerryJ Formula 3

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    LOL
     
  18. jimpo1

    jimpo1 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mine is more of a WAAAAHHHH snick snick WAAAAAHHHH. I don't EVER try to speedshift, it's not a Corvette. I actually let a friend drive the car a few months ago, and he's a hard core Mustang guy. He ground the gears nearly every shift, trying to shift it as fast as he could his car.

    He won't drive it again.
     
  19. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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    I'm suprised a driver's car like a Ferrari shifts so poorly! If you match the engine revs to the next gear while shifting, does it smooth things out at all? I speed shift my Lotus all the time; that's part of the fun! It's a very short throw lever and even with a long heavy linkage, it can handle whatever I do.

    Ken
     
  20. AJS328

    AJS328 F1 Veteran
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    These cars are like people in the respect that everyone of them is unique. I tried the Redline NS in one of my previous 328's after hearing so many good things about it. It actually made the shifting worse in my car. I switched to Mobil 1 gear oil and the shifting improved dramatically. You may need to try a few brands before you find the one that's right for your car.
     
  21. Cielo

    Cielo Karting

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    even on a much newer Fcar (a 2000 550). The biggest problem is 2 to 3. All my other cars can be shifted quickly and smoothly. What is so different about the F gears that make them so clunky?
     
  22. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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    Exactly! Why?? I have a hunch the gear oil theme as mentioned is a factor. So much acecdotal evidence that the right oil makes a huge difference in a Ferrari. But only Ferrari among exotics seems to have shifting issues (please no bashing of L or P cars!).

    I use plain old store brand 80 weight gear oil and it works fine. I hadn't even changed it for 4 years (*gasp*) until last Winter, and the new gear oil didn't change my shifting feel a bit. It was scary how dark the old was though!

    I wonder if Ferrari boxes are just more sensitive to maintainence and adjustment? Or people can't shift right (which I doubt!)?

    Ken
     
  23. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    I suppose unless you looked inside other gearboxes to have some basis of comparison, one would just think this race bred car should shift slicker than a Honda. From my perspective I had assumed beforehand that a Ferrari would have a very robust gearbox able to absorb large quantities of HP without complaint. I think from the overall threads ive been reading the last 5 or 6 years, that assumption proves itself very well. 3X8's have probably some of the strongest gearboxes made for any car, much less Ferrari! Some turboed cars are pushing over 700HP into these boxes and they hold up. Winning races isnt always to the quickest, but who is running strong at the end.

    The shifting problem is more a function of size. The gears and shafts inside that box are larger than most 1 ton trucks. The shifting forks are worked through a cross fork to turn the linkage angle 90 degrees from the shift rod throws. The shift rod is heavy, the rods are heavy, the forks are heavy, the sliders...You just cant mash something that heavy that fast. And, the syncros arent made to be fast. Speed shifts are something V8 American muscle cars do, mostly because they have 2 foot long shifter handles. These cars are made to be finesed, driven with a soft hand and smoothe shifts. You dont need to force it, you need to "feel" it, you need to let the car talk to you and you will be awarded snick snick shifts and a smile for a job done well. Read old R&T magazines and others from that time, in how they speak of the cars persnickety shifting and how you have to "learn" it. Its that way for a reason, and once understood, you will be happy. Its not supposed to be fast, just precise.

    There were some threads of people switching back to dino gear oil with limited slip properties having better shifting.
     
  24. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Are you sure the problem is with the shifter itself and not the shift gate? I bought one of Hill's "slick shift gates" and find that the shifting motion is easier without encouraging speed-shifting.
     
  25. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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  26. jimpo1

    jimpo1 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Thats the explanation I'm going to use.

    Quite frankly, I don't care what the reason is, I haven't speed shifted a car since my friends Road Runner back in high school. The Ferrari shifter IS more precise and requires more 'touch'. I, for one, like it that way.
     
  27. DGS

    DGS Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Okay, enough already.

    Firstly, scoobie owners are finding that their 300BHP 2.5L US market STi engines are fragging the gearboxes made for the JDM 2L engines.

    And if you want to see a PITA shift, get an EVO: There's a hydraulic damper in the clutch master cylinder to keep you from "popping" the clutch -- it protects the gearbox from CA street racers, but it makes a quick shift impossible. (The EVO sacrifices the clutch to save the gearbox.) (Once the warranty issue is off, that damper is slated for the trashcan.)

    I've found that you have to have a feel for working with the machinery (instead of against it) to quick shift any Italian car -- from my old Fiat 124 through several Alfas to the 328.

    I'm told (by the archives here), that there's a recessed opening in a 3x8 gearbox to make room for a rod to fit when shifting into second -- when the gear oil is cold, it doesn't get out of the way easily, which makes the second gear shift difficult. There are mods to play with that, if you're inclined.

    But it IS possible to smoothly shift a 328 (mine, at least). I can get it into second when cold, even in New England cold weather, by double-clutching. And I didn't have any problems with the 308s I test drove, either.

    But that's me, after 30 years of Italian cars. I let a friend from the Celica AllTrac owners group try to drive the 328, and he was stymied by the shifter. I don't really like the lack of feel in a Japanese shifter. (Of course, I did get 100K out of the Celica shifter, and sold the car with the original clutch still good. My '79 Alfa still has the original clutch. Being in tune with the machinery saves on service, too.)

    But the key point is that smooth is the focus -- there ain't no setch animule as a "speed shift". Like heel & toe, it's a matter of smooth -- speed comes with practice.

    Nobody climbs into an Italian car and shifts like Fanzio the first try. It may be pointless to urge patience on a generation that makes instant coffee in the microwave, but there you have it: "Fast" comes from the fundamentals -- get those down first, and speed will come on its own without even trying.
     
  28. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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