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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by shaughnessy, Aug 29, 2012.
Totally disagree, in my eyes one of the best looking, most elegant Ferraris ever made
Interesting. A design with a mistake regarding the rear wheel clearance is the most elegant ... hmmm.
As Jack-the-lad said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... actually that is not what he said, but something along those lines.
Doesn't do it for me ...
it is a race car, function over form... its' evolution was an intermediate stop gap leading to the next generation of cars... the rear wheel boxes most likely were a quick fix to accommodate new tire sizes... it adds to the race car image of performance improvement on the fly ...vs a total body / chassis redesign already in the works for the next generation...the 330 LMB combines the appreciated looks of the 250GTO and 250 Lusso whose appeal is shared by many
I agree. The LMBs look nowhere near as good as the GTOs 62 or 64. Then theres GTO 4713 that was clothed as LMB. Poor thing. Looks like an ugly duckling among her sister cars...
330 LMB 4619 SA remains stolen, regardless of what is thought about design...back on topic
Jalopnik in its' article about the theft quotes Don Williams ( owner of Blackhawk ) as not knowing anything about the car, or it being being removed from his premises and does not want to get involved... funny reaction / attitude about a high value car under his supervision for a number of years... how does a prominent display go missing during the night, yet the placard about the 330 LMB is still in place with a different car in the morning... phunny, how he loses his memory about the car... smells of cover up and nefarious intentions... as there is no knowledge or sighting of the car since
I merged this thread with the existing discussion on the theft of 4619SA so that we can keep everything in one place.
I would also like to add these comments, posted in another thread:
Ha Ha how the mighty do fall on their own swords. What red Ferrari, I never saw no red Ferrari...... I wouldnt be surprised if its still floating around and Mr. Williams may well know exactly where it is. Hell if he doesn't Marcel will....
Happy Easter all.
I'm pretty sure if there were 40 LMBs instead of 4, Jack-the-lad and Tim(x n)y would not find them beautiful. Rarity makes many things look better than they are
Nope, I just like the curvature which is expressed in a muscular manner and in my eyes it works..... 40 or 4 I find it pleasing to the eye.
Each to their own, eh.
The car was flown to Europe in the late eighties and officially imported into the Netherlands, nothing was wrong then, a car can not be exported without a title from the States.
I still have a copy from the importpapers into the Netherlands, everything LEGAL...
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everything ILLEGAL... the car was stolen and exported on FORGED / BOGUS documents which date back to the original theft... several levels of US court decisions reflect the theft as true, currently there is a court order to pick the car up on sight and is listed in the NCIC computer as stolen... per public records... anyone holding the car since the theft in 1977 was buying / selling / trafficking in stolen property... Barcehetta.cc lists about 10 owners who are exposed to possibly dealing in stolen property... there is no statue of limitations on theft of property
Now I will admit that is a good photo angle of the car
don't hold your breath... Ferrari historians / experts etc, who under normal circumstances know everything to be possible to know, down to the smallest detail about who, what, where, when, about a Ferrari, turn dumb and silent when a sensitive question is asked... nothing but crickets... their reputation, income and future depend on being on discrete about what the hear and see... 4619 SA may be a good example of that silence
I suspect that Toto and Cheesey are both right, in a way. I think (not really sure) that when the car went from Charlie Hayes to Fong, the paper work, including title, also went to Fong. Thus Fong had everything he needed to sell the car, even though it may have actually been owned by Fong's customer. This is pure speculation, as I only had the physical car, not the papers. But back in the day, it would not have been unusual for someone as well-known and respected as Fong to have the car and the title. Only in retrospect can we say that someone may have been too trusting.
Ed; What is really scary now is that I almost bought the car from Hajduk (who had purchased it from Fong), but Joe Marchetti beat me with the money by two hours!
per public records posted about the car, it was not his to sell... any sale that occurred was of a stolen car, with bogus documentation that was created... those that purchased the car through the years, bought and sold stolen property...
as DWR said it was his good fortune not to be involved with stolen property
Interesting comment of yours Ed, as usual. And as a lawyer I guess there is a difference between a stolen car and a fraudulously sold car. If the seller has the car and the title, specially if the title is in his name, how much due diligence can you do that the paperwork or shown ownership is not valid?
Do we have when we buy cars to ask the 10 previous owners if they correctly sold their cars or if they believed their original contract or transfer was not correct, or if the change of ownership happened against their will?
Let's assume in this case that Fong had a sale mandate and that he sold the car but did not give the money back to the owner, is it a theft or a fraud and commercial dispute?
it is typical with real estate to do a title history or validate other high value collectables... collector cars have become a special class, especially cars with ultra high values in the millions... it is not difficult to verify a current or previous owner or check the NCIC. in the case of 4619 SA there was a valid title issued a few years previous ( ref posted on the internet )... the newly manufactured title did not match previous information sending flags to anyone purchasing had they looked into the history... also it was one of four cars, which is not like looking through a production run of thousands... ignorance is not an excuse
Does anyone know where 4619 is at now? It seems the NCIC records are purged every 5 years and it wouldn't show up unless someone renewed the NCIC records. The car is back on Stolen List. There is a huge reward for the location of the car if it's ever seen. You can contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org we can keep all parties confidential. Since Mr Fong is not around maybe someone will come forward.
possible inaccuracies in above post...
NCIC stolen files are not purged, all entries for stolen vehicles remain as stolen until verified as vehicle has been found... 40 year old theft... Corvette was recently returned to owner after authorities investigated vin issues which turned up the Corvette was still listed stolen in NCIC
The FBI keeps all information / tips confidential. why not go direct to the nearest FBI office with any information and eliminate the possibility of splitting the posted reward or having any actionable information not find its' destination by using an unknown intermediary.
A few months ago there was mention on the internet of posting a $1,000,000 reward for successful return of Ferrari 330 LMB 4619SA.
it is surprising that no one is interested in collecting the reward, especially those that were close or privy to the car's removal from Blackhawk Museum...
I have always wondered what those 4 liter motors in 330 TRI, 330 LM, etc. were.
What block number did they have? Did they share any parts with the later 209?
Lowell: They are VERY different engines. They were a hot rodded version of the 400 Superamerica engine. While the Tipo 163 and the Tipo 209 motors share bore and stroke, they are built on different bore centers, so the 209 is a much larger motor physically. The Tipo 163 was the largest version of the original Colombo V-12.
The 163 should be a lot more powerful than the 209 as well shouldn't it, Dyke?
Steve: I see nothing in the designs that should make one more powerful than the other. The factory never built Tipo 209 motors using the hot cams, six carbs and higher compression, though many aftermarket versions have been produced by various builders. Both engines should make 400 bhp with similar tuning.