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330 LMB 4619SA

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by shaughnessy, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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  2. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Giotto:

    I agree, nice find, we will update the records.
     
  3. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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  4. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Giotto: These are great photos. I was fairly sure that 4453 was the LeMans Test car. Thank you for providing the final proof of my theory.
     
  5. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    Here's #4453SA before the LM race.
    All the LMBs have different louvers. Only those from this car matches with the April LM test car n° 12.

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  6. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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  7. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Cheesey, Just a few thoughts (in red), feel free to answer or ignore.

    4619 is reasonably well known, yet it was overlooked as being a stolen car by many in the industry... there have not been any reports of seeing the car since it was secreted from Blackhawk... little interest in reporting stolen cars... at one point there was a $1,000,000 reward for locating the car

    Secreted?, most of Mr. Samsungs collection seems to have spent periods on display at the Blackhawk and periods in storage in Korea or in Europe (I believe his ex Neil Corner Auto-Union was in Germany) and I know of no sale from Mr. Lee's collection. I would note that like the Auto Collections museum in Las Vegas, they don't own the cars, just display them on behalf of their owners or vendors and many are available for sale, its fair to ask the question of why Blackhawk didn't investigate whether it was stolen, perhaps they didn't know and no organisation/auction house goes through the stolen vehicle investigation for every car they handle, only those where the appellant has raised the issue. Even if they did know, they may not be able to do much short of complying with any police or FBI action, the rest is for the "claimed" owner, in this case Mr. Samsung.

    it didn't spend much time at Fong's... refer to postings of documents and posts by Ed Niles here for a time line
    Okay, I read elsewhere that Fong had #4619SA at his shop from '74 to '77, I apologise if that is incorrect.

    read the posted documents here, and interview on Jalopnik, the theft was immediately report to authorities when it was stolen... it has been actively sought since theft
    Again I apologize if incorrect or missed something but it was on display at the Blackhawk collection for many years and as DWR46 said, it was hardly kept out of sight or hidden.

    there are posts here that refer to its time and claimed owner in Europe and potential owner in Korea which should kind of qualify the car as a world traveler
    Fair enough.

    the car had forged documentation... it is hard for the FBI or anyone to claim ownership / pick up a car with documents that don't match the car... its not easy get a court to reconcile the forgery
    Are you saying a court or the FBI have accepted Mr. Samsungs ownership/documents or they haven't accepted it? Perhaps 10 - 20% of any auction houses offerings are without pink slips/ownership papers, especially racing cars so there is no reason to believe a 330LMB must be sold with a pink slip. Yes, it can be registered and sold like a Pontiac but it could also be legitimately sold as an unregistered racing car, if its not stolen. Obviously if it is stolen, then anything after that fact is illegal.

    the theft took place before the internet, there was not a speedy way to widely communicate the theft....
    Absolutely agree.

    the courts have reconciled the forgery, unfortunately a search warrant cant be used as a hunting license.

    I hope you don't mind my questions, feel free to answer or ignore them. Best of luck with your efforts to recover #4619SA and I don't envy you your battle.
     
  8. cheesey2

    cheesey2 Rookie

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    arrogance and misguided confidence in the forged documents allowed it to be displayed.... have you noticed that no sightings of 4619 since court decision

    Blackhawk is Don Williams etc.... Williams is involved with the car and sale of car to Samsung.... they know exactly what they had no need to investigate

    need to check time line for accurate time at Fongs 2-3 years doesn't seem long

    State of Georgia issued a title under the new id numbers which did not match with the identification when in was initially brought into the USA. the perps posted a $1500 title bond along with understating the market value.... An official title is hard to ignore when presented and more difficult reconcile

    finances play a large role in recovery.... attorneys don't come cheap... every time the car was shown it was in a new jurisdiction and the list goes on
     
  9. cheesey2

    cheesey2 Rookie

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    Honesty and integrity is not universal in the collector car community
     
  10. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    All this reminds me, somehow, of the 410SA that was "stolen" after it proved to unsalable. Insurance? Far be it for me to say. If I read all the posts correctly, Fong registered this car in his own name, sold it to legitimate buyers, and then reported it stolen in March, 1977. Or vice versa. What was the date on which he first sold it?
     
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  11. cheesey2

    cheesey2 Rookie

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    #161 cheesey2, Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
    The documents were in the selling owners name ( California "pink slip") No transfer of ownership except to current owner... in excess of 40 plus years with same owner.
     
  12. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    4619 SA at the Rimini Concours 1963 while owned by first owner Cartiere del Timavo (of Pietro Ferraro) of Trieste, Italy.
    Note original nose configuration which was altered later (fog lights, blinkers, openings).

    Marcel Massini

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  13. cheesey2

    cheesey2 Rookie

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    when this photo is compared to 4619 as it is known today there are details that don't march... it is NOT 4619SA or several changes have been made that alter the car's appearance since that photo was made
     
  14. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    Let's compare the different position of the little front lights and the air inlets on the LMB's. On every car, it's different.
    LMB n°9 is #4381SA - Le Mans 1963.
    LMB n°12 is #4453SA - Le Mans 1963 april tests.
    LMB n°11 is #4453SA - Le Mans 1963.
    LMB n°12 is #4725SA - Le Mans 1963 (this LMB is RHD).
    On Marcel's picture, it's still different. So, why not #4619SA ? The nose was subsequently modified for one reason or another.

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  15. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Here's 4619 SA at Albrecht G. Guggisberg's Oldtimer Garage Ltd. in Toffen (near Berne), Switzerland, in April 1989.
    Front has been altered for sure.

    Marcel Massini

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