Dwell meter hook-up for checking Lambda control? | FerrariChat

Dwell meter hook-up for checking Lambda control?

Discussion in '308/328' started by DWPC, Nov 9, 2011.

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  1. DWPC

    DWPC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2011
    733
    Sedona AZ
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    Can anyone tell me how to hook-up a dwell meter to check Lambda control on a QV as described in the the Probst book on Bosch CIS? The book is generic so has no model specific info.
     
  2. DWPC

    DWPC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2011
    733
    Sedona AZ
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    Anyone??? The book mentions a Lambda test plug, but the 308 has only the round ignition test plug. ECU?
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    #3 Steve Magnusson, Nov 10, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2011
    Yes, the "round" plug is just a place where some of the ignition system signals can be sampled -- no injection system signals there.

    To measure the dwell of the frequency valve signal, just connect the two leads of the dwell meter to the two terminals of the frequency valve (while they are still plugged in). Or follow those wires on your schematic to other locations where they maybe can be more easily accessed (when plugged in) -- for example, the PN (beige/black) wire can be found at the protection relay terminals, and the AG (light blue/yellow) wire goes to the K-Jetronic ECU connector.

    The tricky bit is being able to "read" your dwell meter correctly. Even if it reads dwell directly, the same signal could read 10% or 90% depending on the polarity of the lead connections and/or how the meter defines dwell. Additionally, as Probst describes in the last paragrapgh on page 5.22, if you are using a points-type dwell meter, you need to do a conversion from degrees to percent.
     
  4. DWPC

    DWPC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2011
    733
    Sedona AZ
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    Thanks Steve. I was concerned that connecting in parallel to the freq valve might half or double the value. I'll make up some jumpers so I don't muck up the connecter. I'm also assuming the "electrovalve" described in the Ferrari owner's manual in relation to the CIS is yet one more name for the frequency/metering valve.
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    #5 Steve Magnusson, Nov 10, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2011
    While the frequency valve could correctly be described as an "electrovalve", IME F is pretty consistent in using the terms frequency valve or metering valve for that gizmo, and the term "electrovalve" is more often used to describe the small solenoid electro-pneumatic valve (as used to control the cutoff valve in your air injection system):
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    An example electrovalve (and differential pressure switch) from another US 308QV:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    If you can give the 307/84 OM page number where the term "electrovalve" is used, I'd be glad to comment.
     
  6. DWPC

    DWPC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2011
    733
    Sedona AZ
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    P. 75 - Its Item (I) in the diagram for the Oxygen Sensor Control System.

    I'm aware of the valve in the air injection system, but since this diagram doesn't label anything as the freq/metering valve, I was thinking perhaps (I) was the freq valve. However, (M) & (N) aren't identified at all. Is there any connection between the air electrovalve and the Lambda control?
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    Had a feeling that it might be that one because (as you noted) they mangled the English descriptions in that figure by omission. You need to use the Italiano side descriptions -- "O" is the frequency valve, and "I" is the air electrovalve in the air injection system. No direct functional relationship between them, but:

    When cold = coolant thermoswitch "L" closed = air electrovalve "I" activated (if oil thermoswitch "G" not too cold/closed, and WOT microswitch "M", the SR portion, not closed = leaves relay "C" unactivated) = intake vacuum reaches the cutoff valve = opens the cutoff valve = air injected (sucked in) at the exhaust ports = signal from O2 sensor would be meaningless. The injection ecu gets the same signal from the coolant thermoswitch "L", and knows to ignore the O2 sensor signal and the FV duty cycle defaults to something like a constant ~60% = FV more open = lowers control pressure = lowers upper chamber pressure = increases the pressure drop across the slits in the FD = adds a little richness for the same size slit opening.

    When warm = coolant thermoswitch "L" open = air electrovalve "I" unactivated = intake vacuum does not reach the cutoff valve = cutoff valve closed = no air injected (sucked in) at exhaust ports = signal from O2 sensor is valid. Again, the injection ecu gets the same (now open) signal from the coolant thermoswitch "L", and uses the (now valid) O2 sensor signal and tweaks the average FV duty cycle trying to keep the average O2 sensor signal at 0.5V (even though the FV duty cycle is changing in this mode, the average FV duty cycle should be ~50%). If the O2 sensor is unplugged during warm running, the FV duty cycle should default to a constant ~50%.
     
  8. DWPC

    DWPC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2011
    733
    Sedona AZ
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    Dennis
    Thanks Steve...that clears it up. Great functional description.
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Need to correct a typo and use some better language -- should've been:

    When cold = coolant thermoswitch "L" closed = air electrovalve "I" activated (if oil thermoswitch "G" not too cold/closed, and WOT microswitch "M", the SR portion, not closed = leaves relay "C" unactivated) = intake vacuum reaches the cutoff valve = opens the cutoff valve = air injected (sucked in) at the exhaust ports = signal from O2 sensor would be meaningless. The injection ecu gets the same signal from the coolant thermoswitch "L", and knows to ignore the O2 sensor signal and the FV duty cycle defaults to something like a constant ~60% = FV more open = reduces lower chamber pressure = reduces upper chamber pressure = increases the pressure drop across the slits in the FD = adds a little richness for the same size slit opening
     
  10. FrannyB

    FrannyB Formula Junior

    May 20, 2014
    293
    Arvada, CO
    #10 FrannyB, Jan 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Steve,

    I am wondering this as well... I have a Euro '85 which has a Lambda installed (I'm guessing it was done back in the day when it was federalized). I don't think it is the same as a US car (maybe) but it looks like the one in this description from Bruce Watson's book: "How To Tune & Modify Bosch Fuel Injection" It notes that the Dwell in the four cylinder position should read 45deg. Seems simple enough... There are two wires on my frequency valve are are red-ish if I remember correctly. I'll look more carefully.

    I'm thinking this will let me know if that old O2 sensor is actually working (I think it is actually welded in place) and if the frequency valve is doing its thing.

    Do you see any danger in hooking up my analog Dwell meter? I don't want to blow anything up. I would probably have a shop check it/set it for reals.

    Thanks so much,

    Franny
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  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,124
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    No, it isn't. On a US version K-Jet with Lambda, the frequency valve changes the lower chamber pressure; whereas, on a euro K-Jet without Lambda that has had Lambda functionality added, the added frequency valve changes the control pressure.

    No, a dwell meter is just essentially a slightly smarter voltmeter, but rather than hooking it up like in the figure, it's easier to just hook the two leads from the dwell meter to the two wires on the frequency valve (while still plugged in to the frequency valve). (If hooked up like in the figure, one wire on the frequency valve will just have a constant 0% or 100% dwell relative to ground, while the other wire on the frequency valve relative to ground will give a dwell reading -- if things are working ;)). Alternatively, if the frequency valve is actually working, you should be able to just touch it with a fingertip and determine if it is "buzzing"/vibrating (working) or not vibrating (not working).
     
  12. FrannyB

    FrannyB Formula Junior

    May 20, 2014
    293
    Arvada, CO
    Great! Thanks so much Steve.

    I'll do a couple simple checks, but I think I'll let the shop take a look at it and do the adjusting. The owner's manual actually has the CO: (1 +/- 0.2) and HC: (<300ppm) (at idle) and I know from my emissions test I'm double those numbers. The injectors have been replaced and the plugs are new - new air filter too. Something is a bit off.

    I always want to, at least sort of have an idea of what is going on before bring it in ;)

    Again, thanks so much for your reply,

    Franny
     
  13. M20J

    M20J Rookie

    Jun 10, 2015
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    SF Bay
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    Mark

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