348 2.7 ign/inj upgrades-includes what?

Hi Bruce,

I'm not sure that it would give you more power.

The 2.7 system manages the engine in a different way, but I don't think it adds power. Ferrari certainly claimed no power increase (the 348 owner's manual claimed 300 horsepower until 1994, when it claimed 310).

I'm not sure that this retro-fit can be done; you'll have to wait until someone more qualified responds

 

The Spider got a little more power from a more efficient exhaust system, new valve springs, timing belt and final drive ratios plus Bosch's improved Motronic 2.7 engine management.

From the introduction of the 348 the engine type is listed as Tipo F119D (300bhp) and from late 93' it's listed as Tipo F119H (320 bhp, in Europe anyway.).

The Tipo F119H engine was used in the Europe-only (?) GTS and GTB versions, I'm not sure if it was lifted over to the Spiders also.

My guess is you will have to do a little more than just upgrade the Motronic system in your quest for more power

 

The 20 bhp incresae came from the larger pelnum chamber.

 

"Is it worth the time and expense?" -- all depends on the "worth" to you. IMO, one of the problems with this project is that the 2.5 Motronic system that you remove from your '89 will have no/little value (so this sort of doubles the cost); whereas, being attached to your '89, it's presently serving a very useful purpose

 

I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that the main difference between the 2.5 and 2.7 systems is that the 2.7 system incorporates the self diagnosis function. It isn't a performance modification.

 

And by the way, the 2.5 system was upgraded to 2.7 at some point during the 1990 model year, specifically at serial number 86406.

Can anyone verify Miltonian's thoughts about the real difference between the 2.5 and 2.7 Bosch Motronic Injection System?

I myself am curious. What are the REAL differences?

 

As a first cut, you could compare the technical illustrations and the list (and placement) of components of the injection systems shown in each respective 348 OM -- just a thought (but not my homework )

 

Easy to spot 2.5 vs 2.7. 2.5 has 1 TPS and 2.7 has 2.
Not worth conversion unless you want more stock power. you need 2 new ecus made after 1994 called the spider or challenge ecu. or you need to get the 2.7 ecu's with the stolen chip code on the eprom for the more power ecu. then you add in the speciale or street challenge exhaust and you get about 20 more hp made from the exhaust and ecu higher redline. the 2.7 late ecu only gives you a higher redline that's it. Add in challenge tube exhaust and you get ???hp nver dynoed one. Still I would be surprised if a stock 348 of any year challenge or not could get you 325hp and I am being generous. for all the cost you have to go illegal and gut the system for programable ecus and MAP sensors to get rid of the MAF sensor restrictions and maybe that would help the free flow of the challenge tube exhaust get more power. there is a european taller intake plenum that will net you maybe another 15hp. I'd like to have one of those but have seen on 1 on a car and they are not available from Ferrari I asked. I do not know what cars in europe had the taller plenum. Michillotos maybe? Dave Helms shop in Boulder Co. had the only one I have personally seen and it was on a special 348 IMSA race car. Dave did an absolutely awesome job with that car. It was so awesome and like no other 348 in existence.

 

From the 348 Factory Workshop Manual, page C70:

"To improve the regulation and performance features of the ignition-injection system and to comply with the recent international standards on self-diagnostics in systems equipped with computer, we have developed the version with Motronic Bosch M2.7 system. Remember that the USA and European versions have the same outfit except for the onboard self-diagnostics, which are present but not activated on the European version.

The regulation strategy and operating principle have remained virtually the same as in the M2.5 version except for the following variants (valid both for basic and catalyst versions."

There follows the list of sensors, ECU signals, actuators, and other components used in the 2.7 system.

If you changed the entire 2.5 system on an early 348 to the 2.7 system used on later cars, I doubt if you would see any increase in horsepower at all.

 

Thanks Jeff.

What are "the following variants?" I am trying to determine whether the on-board self-diagnostic is the only change from 2.5 to 2.7.

Are there different or additional "sensors, ECU signals, actuators, and other components used in the 2.7 system?"

 

Jeff you wrong or what you read has stuff left out. It is weel known that all the 348 challenge guys used the 94 spider ecus for the extra 200rpms. increase rpm= HP simple. Come to my house I'll give you a ride with the early and late 2.7 motronics (I have both sets) and see the rev limiter kick in points for yourself. both 2.5 and 2.7 are under OBD1 so the smog issues are the same.

 

Billybob, you have more experience in these things than I do, and I have no doubt that the later type 2.7 Motronic may give an extra 200 rpm before the rev limiter cuts in, but do you get any extra horsepower out of the extra 200rpm, that's the question. Your statement that "increase rpm = HP" isn't always true, is it? If the 348 engine gave 300HP at 7200, that's where the curve peaked out. Just raising the redline another 200rpm doesn't give any extra HP, in fact it gives LESS HP unless the extra rpm is combined with the other changes in the later engine.

If someone takes an early 348 with a 2.5 Motronic, and makes no change except to install a 2.7 Motronic with an extra 200rpm to the rev limiter, he does NOT get more horsepower, just more revs. That's the way I see it. Wrong?
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I see your argument is right AND wrong. Changes are in context. You see moving the rpm moves the curve. your argument is not absolute and changing one parameter never leaves the other parameters untouched. An easier way to look at it in non-technical terms most on this post can understand is the old days of headers and carbs. if you add in headers they make potential more HP but really don't and can make less as they scavage the mixture, i.e. touch one thing and alter other things you may not know about. So the solution with headers and carbs was to increase the intake side (more gas more air) to keep up with the exhaust side = more power. Or...we can go one step further and forget that you or I know anything at all and just look at what the pros did. ALL challenge cars were run by FNA dealers for gentleman racers hence pros and they all used later ECU's when challenge legal. By the end of the 348 challenge series there was not one competative 2.5 motronic 348. So let the facts speak for themselves...late model 2.7 motronics are the way to go.

 

I owned a late model 1990 348ts that was 2.7 Motronic.there is no HP differenc between the 2.7 and 2.5 on the 89 and early 90.2.7 was upgraded due to hard start problems with the 2.5.Almost all 2.5 should have been upgraded by the factory due to a recall bulletin issued by Ferrari.HP rating for 348 is 300hp except for 348 Spiders which are rated at 312HP due to less restrictive exhaust.Challenge 348 and SS are rated at 320HP due to larger intake plenum chambers and sport exhaust and different ECU calibration for higher RPM's but still called 2.7 Motronic.

 

The 348 spiders where 320 BHP, well thats European spec cars.

 

To my knowledge all the cars after 94 and the ss and chal;lenge models are 320. there is no larger plenum except on a very few special cars that were raced beyond cahllenge specs.. I have tried to find one of these larger plenums to no avail.. the sport exhaust is the challenge street exhaust and this single can was found on all ss, challenge, regulars '94. in fact aus still had the 2 can in 94. the only plenum change was the 2.5 to 2.7 plenum which is the same size but the 2.7 is drilled for the extra TPS...se your parts books and you see two different part numbers.

 

Again, the owner's manual for the US 1994 348s says 310 horsepower.

The factory and other people claim 312 or 320, which may be true; but the book says 310.

 

Okay guys a little more info about the 348's.

There is a reason you will see one hp rating of 310hp, another of 315hp , and yet another of 320hp. It is the way that hp is measured and by what standards. If you are rating using the meteric hp, or SAE rating system. The metric will give you higher numbers and the SAE will give you lower numbers. You can take the exact same engine put in on a dyno run it once on the metric hp, and the other sae, and get to different power ratings. It's kind of like measuring distance in kilomiters or miles. So if you are quoating from a european owners manual you will get power rating x (metric), and from a u.s. manual power rating y (sae).

Now as for the question of the taller intake. The taller upper portion of the intake plenum is off of the european 348 GTS/GTB models. Yes it helps with air flow. However one thing that alot of people don't know is that the GTS/GTB's got something the other cars didn't. They got higher compression pistons. I got this info directly from the official Ferrari website. The 348 gts/gtb's have a 10.8/1 compression ratio, as compaired to the rest of the 348's that have 10.4/1 compression. So that is why the gts/gtb's make more power in addition to the other upgrades. I don't know if this also goes for the SS, competizione, or challeges models? But it does apply to the euro gtb/gts 348.

 

My hand book says 320 BHP. Mine is a European spec car.