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348 Engine blew 367 days after last major...

Discussion in '348/355' started by axarunner, Mar 10, 2021.

  1. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
    8,706
    New England/FL
    Just remember that many forced in the engine increase like RPM squared. So from 6k to 7.5k means a 56% increase in forces on the conrods, bearing journals, etc.
     
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  3. kenneyd

    kenneyd Formula 3
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    Sep 30, 2014
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    I've taken 50 year old lycomings to redline all the time lol. Its a engine, not a hip lol.
    In the 355, as soon as the oil is up to temp, my motor sees 8500rpm... A lot.

    At least johnK not alone anymore in the never over 6k club.

    And what's the difference between a piece of metal that's been subjected to 25% vs 50% of it's allowable stress?
    It's designed for it, it's all well inside the envelope.
     
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  4. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
    8,706
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    Fatigue life. Wear limits. The higher stressed part will fail sooner. Valve guides, for example, wear out faster when run at high RPM, as do bearing and seals. Headers fail sooner because at higher RPM they are subject to more heat. Timing belts, water pumps, generators, cylinder liners..... What ever the design conditions are the expected life will be greater is the design limits are not routinely hit. And then there is always the statically variation and a part fails to meet the design spec.
     
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  5. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2006
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    Sounds like you're talking about the 355. :)
     
  6. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    I was about to say! Dude just had his Ferrari blow up on him, cut him some slack!

    I'm skeptical of the over rev hypothesis. Sounds more like a tensioner issue to me. If 7,000 is grenade territory mine never would have made it to the next owner

    Maybe seized H20 pump - would that cause this kind of failure in one of these engines?
     
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  8. GatedF355GTB

    GatedF355GTB Karting
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    Dec 5, 2017
    83
    Owning a 355 and not experiencing the glorious crescendo from 7 to 8.5k is like being married to Margot Robbie and never touching her. What’s the point?
     
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  9. KevZep

    KevZep Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2020
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    Kevin Bennett
    Not likely as if the water pump seized, it would not strip the teeth off the belt like it has.....
     
  10. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Matt
    Ok, it's been a few days since Tuesday... what happened to the motor? I doubt that the issue has anything to do with how high it was revved intentionally - something locked up.

    FWIW - our 355 also sees redline regularly. It was designed to do that, and as others have said, that's where the power is at. No reason to be RPM shy with a Ferrari just because.

    It may be that I did all of the work on the last major - but I am comfortable driving the car that way.
     
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  11. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Rookie
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    I suspect shops aren't sitting around hoping work comes in, they probably have back log. If they got to his car this soon I would be impressed. :)
     
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  13. POLO35

    POLO35 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2005
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    MATT
    OP has 348 redline is 7500. I think 355 is 8500.
     
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  14. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2011
    3,075
    Pittsburgh, PA
    This thread is pointless without the diagnostic of the engine. Tear it down and see what really happened.
     
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  15. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    100% agreed

    If I wanted to shift thousands of RPM's below peak horsepower I would buy a tow truck.
     
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  16. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    Mine as well just drive around in 2nd gear then. Just keep it a red line like you do with your daily driver. :)
     
  17. axarunner

    axarunner Karting

    Sep 8, 2019
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    #89 axarunner, Mar 19, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2021
    Sorry for the delay but the tear-down revealed that a valve bucket and shim let loose causing the cam to basically jam and freeze hence the belt's teeth sheering off. Damage was also done to the cylinder head... The technician claims the damage was done by over-reving the engine which blew my mind. Valves hit pistons and as such there may be additional damage to the pistons and connecting rods. Max at Classic Coach has found a used engine and he's weighing the cost of repair versus the cost of replacement. I'm looking at a cost-of-repair-to-car-value ratio of 30%. The last engine out service was done by Exoticars who also performed a cam-seal-drain modification to both cylinder-head.
     
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  18. chopsui

    chopsui Karting

    Feb 27, 2019
    81
    I'm a little confused as to what exactly this means.

    Did they send you any pics?
     
  19. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
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    ... I'd like to see pics as well. Shim under bucket lifters are basically bulletproof.

    However, one really bad downshift (i.e. 4th to 3rd instead of 5th), and lifters/valve keepers/springs/etc. can go boom due to valve float.
     
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  20. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Rookie
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    Ugh god I hate to hear that much carnage, really sucks.
     
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  21. KevZep

    KevZep Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2020
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    Thanks for letting us know, I had a feeling a cam may have seized after having a good think about it. Pulley fence wont tear teeth off the belt like that, neither would the idlers or water pump as they run on the back of the belt.
    Something is not adding up though as you say you've never over-revved the engine. I'm not even sure how you would miss a gear on the down-change with the gate, I have never ever missed a gear in my 348.........going from 5th to 2nd for instance is a way for it to over rev, and that is the type of over-revving that would cause that kind of damage. Revving under load is not going to result in something like that in my opinion....its always over run, or free revving which causes these sorts of failures....I was always taught when I was an apprentice mechanic to NEVER free rev engines to high rpm.....Always have a load!!
    Something is not right, was the head damaged around that bucket, cracked or something?
    Can't be an assembly issue from the service as you have done a fair few miles.....very strange......

    At least you seem to have a way of moving forward..........
     
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  22. axarunner

    axarunner Karting

    Sep 8, 2019
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    Dan Murphy
    I went to the shop and saw the damage... the technician took photographs so I'll have photographs later. I'm really at a loss as to how this happened... I had just picked up the car after having the steering rack rebuilt and an oil change while there... I was merely driving it back home when mayhem struck.
     
  23. axarunner

    axarunner Karting

    Sep 8, 2019
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    Nope... that didn't happen on my watch... nor over-raving without load.
     
  24. chopsui

    chopsui Karting

    Feb 27, 2019
    81
    Starting to wonder if someone at the shop that did the oil change might have been having a little fun and you just happened to be the one driving when the damage finally became catastrophic
     
  25. POLO35

    POLO35 Formula Junior

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    OK I've been biting my tongue. First of all, a 50 year old lycoming is no different than one year old one....it has to be torn down, inspected and rebuilt as per FAA regulation due to hours. My good friend owns an FBO and service business that specializes in Lear Jets and Citations.....huge money for maintenance......Our Ferraris are not like that at all....sure we pull the motor throw a timing belt, water pump, tensioner and bearings......but that's about it. These cars are 25+ years old. Second, these cars have been owned by multiple owners who have had their fun running around redlining on every shift....sooooo, That brings me back to my original argument that running around hot doggin and redlining DOES have consequences, regardless of maintenance....just ask the OP!
    Again, I push mine to 6000....65000.....have plenty of fun and none of my Ferraris have ever been to a shop......ever.
     
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  26. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    100% disagree

    If I didn't think I could drive the car as Ferrari intended I would have no interest in owning it.

    No wonder these things have a reputation for being slow :)
     
  27. bcar1

    bcar1 Karting
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    The PO of my car had to have the heads redone after severe carbon building up from not driving the car aggressively enough, mechanic thought it looked like he never took it above 3000! No one is suggesting driving at redline all the time but the cars are meant to be taken to their conservative limits if maintained.

    My major is not a lock and swap- but I agree if you don’t know the maintenance history and aren’t taking care of the car you should be much more careful.
     
  28. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

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    Maybe it's just short-shifting MATT that has the reputation for being slow. ;)
     
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