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348 Plenum Redesign

Discussion in '348/355' started by vvassallo, Jan 31, 2013.

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  1. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

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    #1 vvassallo, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Saw this for a Corvette engine. We'd have our runners go downward rather than crosswise. The volume of the plenum is 2x the engine displacement. The TBs are 75mm so we'd scale everything back for our engines.

    The designer is Performance Design.
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  2. Falcon Wing

    Falcon Wing Formula 3

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    #2 Falcon Wing, Jan 31, 2013
    There are some engine parts that are just plain pretty.
     
  3. malex

    malex Formula 3
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    #3 malex, Jan 31, 2013
    Yup, sure does look purdy ...

    But man, it does not look cheap.
     
  4. First Ferrari

    First Ferrari Formula Junior

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    #4 First Ferrari, Jan 31, 2013
    Way sexy!
     
  5. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

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    #5 vvassallo, Jan 31, 2013
    The price tag of this beauty is $5K. But in my concept, we'd be less than $3K. For $5K you should have a turn key bolt on set up. And the Fker better deliver some ponies! :/
     
  6. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    #6 bobzdar, Jan 31, 2013
    Is the intake the limitation or is it the heads and cams? If the latter, a fancy intake will be a waste until the heads and cams are improved enough to where the intake is the limitation.
     
  7. Rob'Z

    Rob'Z Formula 3

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    #7 Rob'Z, Jan 31, 2013
    If one of you send me a a stock setup I'll look into fabricating something like pictured above (out of aluminum not carbon). It would be a fun project. M

    Rob
     
  8. Moiluck

    Moiluck Formula Junior

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    #8 Moiluck, Feb 1, 2013
    This intake plenum looks great and sexy, but IMO, I only would spend $3k-$5k for changing the oem plenum to an ITB system intake. A properly tuned ITB can make a great difference in power.
     
  9. Moiluck

    Moiluck Formula Junior

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    #9 Moiluck, Feb 1, 2013
    +1
     
  10. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    #10 Mitch Alsup, Feb 1, 2013
    The "cathedral" ports on the Vette come out of the heads at and angle that this intakes system continues.

    The ports on the 348 (or 355) heads come out straight up.

    Anytime air has to turn a corner (even a small one), you will find a restriction. So, properly designed intake systems contine the port path for a considerble distance. The distance is determined by the RPM band overwhich power is made.
     
  11. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

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    #11 vvassallo, Feb 1, 2013
    All obvious and we would naturally take care of these issues. The runners on our version would turn gently downward, or just exit out the bottom as they do now; probably a bit of both to get some mid-range. Might not even matter, we'd have to test it. We've learned that a lot of theorizing gets you jack on these engines. You gotta do the testing. The Stooges are considering taking Rob up on his offer. Wish we had a good 3D machine... Goth?

    Naturally we are looking at tbs. At least I was. There's a pretty cool solution there but it costs about the same - $3500. Then you need a replacement air box like on the 355's. There is no free lunch, but my biggest hurdle is spending $4K on a test atht might not yield any results. Of course, I am always willing to spend Ernie's money... :D
     
  12. BRADAN

    BRADAN Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 BRADAN, Feb 1, 2013
    I agree. You would have to flow bench the intake and cylinder heads to figure out if they are holding back any power which I doubt.

    I can't see you making an ITB setup for less then 3k either. To meet this price your going to have to do a large production run which there won't really be a market for. Another thing to consider is removing the MAF, sensors, etc will require a new wiring harness and engine management system. Very few things are bolt on and go.
     
  13. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #13 fatbillybob, Feb 1, 2013
    Next year the stooges will still be dreaming about more power when the answer to all their prayers is just a finger switch away.
     
  14. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 ernie, Feb 2, 2013
    It's all of the above.
     
  15. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 ernie, Feb 2, 2013
    Oh reeeeeeeally?

    Well even though I think the ENTIRE intake needs a redesign, that isn't the design I would go with. Well, maybe the crossing runner, but that would be it.
     
  16. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 ernie, Feb 2, 2013
    Now your talking!

    I'll give you a jingle and we can talk.
     
  17. angelis

    angelis F1 Veteran
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    #17 angelis, Feb 2, 2013
    What kind of BHP gains are we talking about?
     
  18. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 ernie, Feb 2, 2013
    As much as we can get.

    On a side note, did Andy ever tell you where he got his cams?
     
  19. angelis

    angelis F1 Veteran
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    #19 angelis, Feb 2, 2013
    Never got around to asking him.

    Hopefully see him soon
     
  20. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

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    #20 vvassallo, Feb 6, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
    What we are trying to figure out is how much performance is restricted by the intake system. This question comes from a few different directions. There is some annectodal information from several people have modded their intakes and got some decent power increases, including Dave of Group74racing, Andy Hill (okay he did quite a bit more to his engine) and Steve Maxwell down in San Diego. We want to explore if this can be done relatively inexpensively and without reprogramming the Motronic and (lastly) using as much of the stock stuff as we can.

    We also have intuition that tells us that we have already messed with the bottom side of the breathing equation and got some gains, so one wonders about the top end. Look at out intake system - it is not very well thought out and there are restrictions all over the place. We ewonder if we can make things better, cleaner and more efficient (of course we can), but do we get only aesthetics or some power of out the effort? No one knows so we are trying to find out.

    We shall see and I hope all wish us well.
     
  21. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #21 ernie, Feb 6, 2013
    So whatcha gonna do Cholo? You and the Oz-meister gonna tackle something similar to that design?
     
  22. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

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    #22 vvassallo, Feb 6, 2013
    I'm not sure. Gonna send the race car intake to RobZ tho and we'll go from there. Haven't talked with Oz though about it. He said he was swamped anyway with his 355 projects.

    Here's why I am torn between options:

    1. Turbo project.
    2. Intake redesign
    3. Air flow redesign - yes I can do this one soon.
    4. Throttle body project - replace 348 intake with 355-type system.
    5. NOS - JOKING!!! FBB is drinking his 80 proof urine again! :p

    Honestly, what we need is 3 guys to get together, figure a plan and a budget, then split the R&D cost for one of these to see if it works.
     
  23. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    #23 bobzdar, Feb 6, 2013
    I'd start at a flow bench before blowing a couple grand on an intake and find out if the stock unit is restricting flow there. Time on a flow bench is cheap.
     
  24. ghardt

    ghardt Formula 3

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    #24 ghardt, Feb 6, 2013
    Turbo!
     
  25. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #25 ernie, Feb 6, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
    It's been done already.



    Dan seems to think the numbers are okay. But in my opinion the plenum is holding the engine back in the mid and upper rpms. Which is also why Ferrari has the compensation valve open between 3500 & 5500rpm. The lift of our intake cams is 263, if my memory serves me correct. So with his new 34mm intake valves at peak lift the plenum and tb are restricting the breathing of the engine. Our engines are not low rmp engines. My car makes peak torque at 6000 rpm, and peak hp at 7200, all top end power. So I don't want my plenum cutting off the air supply right when the engine is coming into it's own.
     
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