Hi, it is a 348 TS 1991. This year starting gets problematic. So i used new connector plates. But it did not solve the problem. The starter is clicking, but does not snap into the gearwheel. If i move the car manually a few centimeters (5th gear) it starts perfect. So it is a mechanical issue. I saw no damage. Think it is this part: Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login German: Ritzel, Freilauf Anybody changed this part ? This is the starter assembly number Ferrari/Denso: Image Unavailable, Please Login Regards Paul
Before suspecting a mechanical issue, perhaps you should first check that the connections of the engine grounding strap are clean and tight. You can also do the following test: when you have the click-nothing, disconnect the wire from the starter solenoid, connect a length of wire to it with which you then touch a positive supply. If the starter engages immediately and runs well, the test would point to poor supply to the starter solenoid. This supply (thick white wire) runs from the footwell fuse box through a few connectors, including one in the 9-pin connector near the rear left suspension tower (connector no. 115). Check the condition of pin no. 8 in this connector - it might be corroded or partially burned. If you establish that the problem is due to poor power supply to the starter solenoid (the thick white wire), you can eliminate repeat of the starting issues if you install a starter relay.
I had this "low voltage, likely due to half burnt ignition switch" issue described by m.stojanovic on my 1991 TS but there wasn't even a proper click on starter motor. I fixed the issue by installing a fused 40A starter relay, no problems ever since. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/1990-348-ts-finally.664281/page-2#post-149246642 https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/348-starter-relay-modification.202861/
I just found out that, in the case of the rectangular connector 115, Ferrari ran the wire which goes to the starter solenoid through two connector pins, 8 and 12, whereas, in the case of round 115, the starter solenoid wire uses only one pin (#8). It seems that Ferrari realised that one pin, since it is rather small/thin, was much undersized for the current it has to transfer; probably some 20-25 Amps of the solenoid's pull-in coil. Round 115: Image Unavailable, Please Login Rectangular 115: Image Unavailable, Please Login This was actually the first issue I had to address when I bought my 348. At times, the starter wouldn't even click, just "nothing". I found the pin 8 of the connector 115 somewhat corroded and partially burned. My solution was to install an AMP 9-pin connector which happened to have two pairs of its pins thicker so I used one for the starter solenoid wire. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hi, thank you both for the informations. I will have a look to the relay first....if i find it. All connections are clean from battery to alternator and starter, good ground. All connections areas were opened, because i thought it is an electrical issue first. Inside the starter new connections: Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Although i think it is mechanical thing. Moving the car ... gap in the gearwheel ... starting ok. Paul
That's thrown a spanner in the works.... There seems to be 3 variations for plug 115 wiring. Image Unavailable, Please Login I can't read the pin numbers @EFerrari34 's photo. The only picture I have of the 348 rectangular 115 plug is this one: Image Unavailable, Please Login But I digress.
Ok, the additional starter relay is a modification and not standard. ... it works 30 years and then a modification is neccessary ? Maybe i try to connect +/- manually directly to the starter housing and starter switch one time.
Correct. Nothing lasts forever Using a relay takes the high current away from the ignition lock and the fragile plug (115). You can use one of these (for safety) or a cheaper version: https://www.amazon.com.au/OTC-OTC3650-Remote-Starter-Switch/dp/B002YKFA3G/ref=asc_df_B002YKFA3G/?tag=googleshopdsk-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=464380459344&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14469328081412487768&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9071912&hvtargid=pla-569509711339&psc=1 One lead on the small alternator terminal (white wire), one on the big positive terminal. Push button.
The small wire on the starter solenoid is positive. it just runs through the keyswitch. If your battery is in back, that is a long way to go after 30 years. if you jumper off the big wire which is battery + all the time, the starter should run. BE SURE THE CAR IS NOT IN GEAR THE IGNITION DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ON FOR THE STARTER TO BE TESTED.
Hi, so i did a test. Plan: Ignition key and no crank/no start incl. measurement of the voltage directly on the plug #50 at the starter switch. And hope that there is a significant voltage drop to below 10V. Reality: 2 times Ignition key and engine starts. Then i disconnect the plug #50 at the starter switch an used a cable directly to the battery. It cranks everytime. So far it was not really a test with good results. After that i pressed the small connector plug on the white cable at #50 a little bit. It was not loose, just a try. The connector plug is now hard to use. Then started the engine an go for a drive. I started the engine 6 times additionally. No problem. Now i wait to verify that. And later i change the small connector. And now i thing some guys were on the right way (relay...) to force the current to pin #50 at the starter switch somehow. If the current is to low the gearwheel has not enough power to snap back to a gap. If it is over the gap it snaps in. "BE SURE THE CAR IS NOT IN GEAR" .. i do that only if the car is standing on a railway and the train is comming. Paul
Plug #50? Do you mean #115? Starter switch? If you reset the plug, you may have inadvertently made a better contact between the pins and sockets.
Miro, regarding the new type connector 115, would you have any clearer images of this on the Instrument diagram Fig. 5b? Image Unavailable, Please Login Pin sequence ?-4-10-?-2-?-? And on Fig. 8b? Image Unavailable, Please Login
It is unlikely that you had poor contact at the connector #50 as it is a relatively big, 6.3 mm wide, spade. It is more likely that the pins (no. 8) of the white starter wire in the round connector #115 have corroded somewhat; open it and have a look. In any case, installing a starter relay is highly recommended. Since some 348 versions (country specs) have issue with the ABS when a standard cube type starter relay is added, you may wish to use a motorcycle starter relay instead which will not cause the mentioned issue and is otherwise more robust (much higher switching amp rating) and only slightly bigger than the standard car cube relay. You can go for a Honda, Kawaski, Yamaha etc. starter relay. One example:
I attach other copies of Fig. 5a and 5b that I have. Both show the rectangular 115. The 5b is not so good but 5a is clearer and, as far as I can see/guess, the pins are 7, 5, 10, 3, 2, (8 or 9) and 11 top to bottom.
Out of curiosity, what is the failure mechanism on those 348 versions which will have ABS issues with a traditional starter relay?
See this thread: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/brake-pump-runs-before-startup-but-wont-run-after-startup.678405/#post-149171381
Hi, since days i opened the connection of the white cable only. Now it is verified. Around 20 additional starts. It was the connector of the white cable at the starter. In my case it is a really simple fix. Next week i will put a new one there. I do not use a relay now. But this would be ok too. It is like the slow windows on the 308. Some fixed it with relays. I fixed that with new connectos, wiring and mechanical actions. Thanks to the helpers here that bring it to the right direction. Paul
Thanks, Miro. I was unable to narrow it down better than this based on your diagrams and mine: Image Unavailable, Please Login Magenta pins/sockets unknown (1, 6 & 9). pin 8 is quite clear in the alternator photo I have, so I guess the sequence is 7, 5, 10, 3, 2, 9, 11. I'm not sure of the wire colour for 9. I think I numbered this (socket) photo incorrectly. It should probably read 6 to 1 (left to right), but even then, the colours don't match up. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I just realised, when I earlier said "(8 or 9)", that it could not be 8 because 8 is for the starter solenoid. So it is 9 and your shown sequence is correct. Pin 9, together with Pin 11, is for the Speed Sensor. Looking at Fig. 5a, the pin 9 wire colour appears to be RB.
I also had an intermittent starter problem that turned out to be this same plug. I was able to secure the plug together and wrap it up. 348 starter worked perfect after that. Figured this issue out after installing a back up ignition switch that looks stock. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
