348 throttle body porting | Page 3 | FerrariChat

348 throttle body porting

Discussion in '348/355' started by ernie, Nov 28, 2011.

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  1. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
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    Love to!
     
  2. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
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    I like this idea. Wouldn't a lowering in resistance at the maf mean more air was flowing? Thus, more mixture means more horsepower? Hmmm. Need to know more. Data input. Engineers needed. Someone to quantify what the results mean. Dave? BCWA? Anybody out there?
     
  3. Opti

    Opti Rookie

    Dec 25, 2009
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    I dont know how the MAF reads out (I have long deleted mine on the LT1), I was refering to the MAP (If the 348 is equipped with one) since it reads in kpa which is a unit of pressure (atleast mine does on the LT1).

    Now we just need to see some people do some head porting.
     
  4. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    It doesn't, we are running dual mafs.

    I don't know how accurate this is or not but...... I found an online velocity calculator and plugged in the size of the opening, for the before and after porting, then the flow numbers for each.

    The 54mm tb flowing 458cfm = 309 fps velocity
    57mm flowing 557cfm = roughly 338fps velocity.
    And increase of 9% in the velocity if I plugged in the number correct. Which I probably didn't. Anyway if they are correct, not only is it flowing more, it's doing it faster.

    Out of curiosity, did that flow bench also measure velocity Rob? I'm guessing no?

    Eventually. ;)
     
  5. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Rob,

    Some call me a "hater" but really engineering is the art of looking at a big picture to design a set of compromises in a systematic way. Some would call the way amateurs deciding to put on free flow headers, locking differentials, double adjustable shocks etc as high dollar outflow for very poor return on investment.
     
  6. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #56 ernie, Dec 3, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
    Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla ,bla ,bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. :p

    What you're talking about Chubba?????
    Rob just PROVED his ported throttle bodies work, and verified it with flow bench numbers. They work so well that my 57mm tb's OUT FLOW a stock set of 60mm tb's he tested. Matter of fact they are probably flowing similar to stock 61-62mm tb's, WAAAAAAAAY better than what they were flowing in stock form.

    Sorry fatboy, but this is was one of the best bangs for the buck I have done to my car.
     
  7. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
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    #57 plugzit, Dec 3, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
    As I see it, the system is designed around a certain hp target. Once that's reached, all the parts are adequate to reach the target, but that doesn't mean that some of the parts can't be changed, doing away with "compromise" to reach a higher target. IE, gold kit and freeflow muffler are two obvious examples of that. Sure there are more and what we love to do is experiment with potential answers. Most all really good mods were done in the face of such doubt and naysaying. That's why I encourage others and occasionally try myself.
     
  8. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Can I get an AMEN!

    So how soon before Rob's has your tb's Bruce?
     
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    What is the "bang"?
     
  10. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    He has proven that they flow more, not that they actually do anything for power production. Big difference. If the limitation is the cylinder head flow and/or cam timing (as I strongly suspect), you'll have gained nothing other than some flow sheets and pictures. Put it on a dyno before you start jumping up and down. I hope it works, but if it does I'll lose a litttle respect for ferrari for leaving power on the table when an extremely simple tb swap would have given more.

    The likely scenario is that they figured out what tb size they needed based on the rpm and displacement (and/or experimentation) and put that on, not one 6mm too small...But the only way to findnout is to ask them or try it. Just don't start counting your chickens (or horses) yet.
     
  11. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #61 ernie, Dec 4, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
    You aren't the only one suspecting it. For SURE they are limiting, and I'll be addressing that sometime in the future also. ;)

    I have said for a long time that the 348 is running restricted. First I got the intake runners ported and flow matched. I don't recalled exactly, but the improvement was something to the tune of 36% increase in flow, and the velocity was improved also. Then I took care of the exhaust end. Got rid of the ristrictive, and very heavy, stock dual can muffler replacing it with a free flowing single muffler custom made for me by Ozzy. The stock cats are also restrictive, with a daggon "defuser" smack in the middle of the inlet to the cat, not forgetting to mention are heavy. Ozzy made me a set of light weight free flow cats taking care of that bottleneck. Next up was the stock headers. I had set of long tube, sequentially paired, stepped, antireversion, tri-y headers, custom made for me by Hytech. And now......... the restriction in the stock throttle bodies has been adressed thanks to the EXCELLENT work performed by Rob'Z.

    It's not just one thing, like the tb bores, it's the WHOLE system, and one by one I have been addressing the issues.

    Next up will be the air intake restrictions, which I know are there. The corrugated tubing, the air box, mafs, the tubing running from the mafs to tb, and the ridiculously long air intake path.

    One by one, in my own time, and on my own terms I will be addressing what I feel needs to be improved on. Some will cheer me on, some will laugh at me, some will participate, and some will be "I'll believe it when I see it" discourging pessimists. And I'm STILL gonna experiment with different improvements. Win, lose, or draw, I'm still gonna do modifications because stock SUCKS.

    Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
     
  12. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    Nothing proven 'till the dyno reigns.
     
  13. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #63 ernie, Dec 4, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
    Well the flow bench has already spoken, and it proved the ported tb's flow much, much better.

    I'm not expecting much. When Vince dyno'd his ported tb's he got an additional 5-ish/hp. Not much, but it's better than stock. :p

    You pessimists crack me up. Always trying to find a way to sink someone's ship.
    "I ported my tb's"
    "Well what did they do on the flow bench?"
    "They out flowed stock"
    "But what did it do on the dyno?"
    "It gave us a bit more power"
    "Yeah well what did it do for track times?"
    "It helped a touch"
    "Well what's the point of doing all that when you could have just bought a 3XX"

    Always looking for fresh cut grass to take a sh*t on.

    It's a good thing guys like the Wright Brothers didn't let the pessimists stop them. And neither do I.
     
  14. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    I am not a pessimist, but a realist.

    I've seen plenty of Vettes that their owner's said they got 5HP from the mufflers, 5 HP from the X-pipe, 5 HP from the 3" exhaust, 5 HP from headers, 5 HP from smaller pulleys, 5 HP from this, 5 HP from that;

    And when finally put on the dyno, a total of 5 HP showed up.
     
  15. Turbopanzer

    Turbopanzer F1 World Champ

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    Where on the flow bench did the gain in airflow show up? Increasing airflow on the bottom will do little for top end, but make a big jump in torque. If the airflow was across the board, then you will see some improvement across the power band. If it just on the top end of wide open, then you might get a few ponies more if everything else is maxed out.
     
  16. JohnsonsMedia

    JohnsonsMedia Formula Junior

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    So how hard would it be to do a 355's TB now ;) ?
     
  17. Rob'Z

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    We'll know once we tear into yours. ;)

    Actually if the timing is right we can have a TB laser scanned when we do my pre plenum intake scan....more power searching, soon the 5.2 guys will have a dual MAF/high flow airbox solution. We can machine a whole new TB from billet or use a plastic printer and flow it VS stock rather than going to the trouble of modifying all eight of those suckers on a hunch.


    Rob
     
  18. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #68 ernie, Dec 4, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
    Rob knows better than I do. He had them flowed before and after. I don't think he got any part throttle numbers? But I really don't care much what the part throttle numbers are. Not that it wouldn't be interesting to know, but I'm really not bothered. I'm THRILLED knowing at w.o.t. they are flowing 22% better than stock, and when fully closed are flowing 0.1 less than stock. That's good enough for me.
     
  19. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Lol. :p:p
     
  20. Opti

    Opti Rookie

    Dec 25, 2009
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    Seriously?

    The late model vettes, LTxs and LSxs, get way more than that from those parts. LT1s commonly get 20whp from headers alone, and Ive seen LS1s pick up 30whp, when you start going up to the LS2 to the LS9 its more and more gains.

    I would not compare the LSx or even LTx to the Ferrari V8s, GM made it VERY EASY to extract more power from the LS motors. Ive seen Heads and Cam LS1s push 500whp, and LS7s will do that with just minimal mods.

    If a vette owner did all that work and only picked up 5 hp Id expect he was down a few cylinders.
     
  21. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes. Mitch is right. I race an scca legal t1 vette ls6 motor. Race tune,100 octane race gas, long tube headers, straight 3" pipes no muffs and we see 370rwhp and think that is great. That is on 10 identical cars I know well. I hear big numbers all the time. We know the reality and can prove it on the dyno or math channels from our data aqu systems.
     
  22. Rob'Z

    Rob'Z Formula 3

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    Hmmm, seems a tad low to me. My '05 (LS2) with longtubes, HF cats, Corsa muffler, Vararam intake and a very conservative 91 oct tune (rich) makes 376RWHP on a Mustang dyno.
     
  23. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran
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    #73 vvassallo, Dec 5, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
    Considering that your race car is a C5 Z06 with 375 rated gross HP, I'd say you have seriously improved that car! Your mods have pushed it well above 400 gross HP. I would die for that kind of improvement to my 348. Oh wait, I got about 8% over rated HP and I thought Ferrari was optimistic at that.
     
  24. Turbopanzer

    Turbopanzer F1 World Champ

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    That will give you a jump on top end. If your happy, that is all that really matters. I hope it gives you the results your looking for. From you statement of increased airflow, I think you will be delighted!! Have fun and enjoy !!!
     
  25. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks!
     

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