Mark, some good points, but I want to give you option c, if that's ok. C. The wrench who gives a pre agreed price to include everything on the service schedule. Nothing more, nothing less. Plus a chat about what he can do over and above that if you'd like. Then when he opens it up and finds something broken, calls, tells you what's up and gives you a pre agreed price for fixing it. I don't really see why you think that's so strange. It's what I've always done with every other car I've owned and how the main dealers here are just starting to operate. I have to say, I'm not trying to run my car on a shoe string, she's just been detailed by one of the top detailers in the UK and is in having a full retrim in top Scottish leather including everything from the dash, doors, parcel shelf and seats to new carpets - I don't mind spending money on my pride and joy. Got to say the pros chatting on here seem like top blokes who I'd be happy having working on my car, and personally I'd go for a lot of the extras.
You asked what were the parts: All gaskets and cam seals Timing belts Belt Pulleys (not the hydraulic tighteners though!) Spark plugs Fuel filter Air Filters Oil Filter Drain plug seals Power Steering Belt A/C belt Brake Fluid Engine oil Gearbox oil Power steering oil Alternator pulley bearing Refilling A/C with 134A That's about it. No big surprises there. Don't think I missed more that some small gaskets and seals. Bear in mind that I had to translate from French!
I can't see anything there that's unreasonable and given that all was replaced seems a fair price. I've noticed in the service schedule a great deal of it specifies to check this or that part. If it turns out it needs replacing then the cost is going to mount up. Is this, then, the difference between the global prices for an engine out cam belt service? Basically, conservatively, we're talking £2000 (you can get it for £1600 as per the Ferrari schedule and inclusive of tax) this side of the pond, maybe £4500 to £5000 over in the states. Is it that over there you really are getting the gold plated solution? Is everything that's specified to be checked on the service schedule replaced for preventative maintenance? I'm not criticising this approach, I'm genuinely interested. It would be a belt and braces approach but there's something to be said for it.
I think your "c" and my "a" are pretty much about the same. And Thanx to your further explaination I think I see your POV a bit clearer. The point I really wanted to make was the Service Time Manual is certainly NOT the "End All" but merely "The Beginning."
At the risk of stating the obvious, rates for all services are much higher in the States as are the profit margins (as befits any economy so dependent on consumerism). Rates come down when economic conditions worsen; competition steps up a gear. Also, going to the recognised "authority" (and paying the price accordingly) is viewed differently in different countries. Fortunately, DIY costs ae about the same everywhere!
Mark, Thanks. I guess the only difference between my c and your a is that with c you specify just what's in the schedule, it's up to you if you want more done. Personally I think I would (and have done) but at least we get the choice. Not sure it'll catch on but where I go it's no estimate, no timesheet, just a quote for what you have in the service manual. Want extras? No issue, they'll say what extra they recomend and give you a direct quote. As I said, I don't hold with comments about pros being thieves or ripping people off. It's just that if I wanted a 30km service as per the service schedule, that's what I'd want to be able to get. I'd bow to their superior knowledge when they advised I get extra stuff done (as I said, personally I'd get a lot of it done) but at times over there it just appears that this isn't an option.
All true, but the prices I have quoted are the recognised "authority" ie the main dealers. I go to Graypaul Ferrari in Nottingham, the largest Ferrari dealer in the UK, was until recently the largest shop in Europe I was told. Think the margins are different but guessing the US techs have extra taxes we've never even heard of here.
One of those "taxes" you mention, and I am guessing but have several antidotial cases from just one PRO here, is the constant threat of litigation (being sued). We all have to help pay that "tax." We all know the Owner is NEVER at fault (and SOMEONE MUST BE Guilty) when something "Lets Go." That is why the word "Check X" in the WSM is Sooooooooooooooo dangerous. If I was a Tech I would seriously consider changing out the word "Check X" to "Replace X" every time it appears in all the service manuals and charts. Or, I'd get a "Line Item Veto" for each "Check X," from the Owner in writing.
You're probably spot on Mark. Although looking at some of the "have you tripped over a step but want to blame someone else" adds we now get over here, we're doing our best to catch up. Truth is, if you look at the service manual a lot of the lines say "check x". A few things, like the belts, say replace every 24 months, but most say to check either every 10,000km or check every 20,000km, timescale is not mentioned. Got to ask yourself how many miles these cars do. Take mine for example, 28,000 miles. Going by the rationale of replace the lot every 2 years (though Ferrari changed the belts to every 3 I think) I'd have replaced some parts 9 times (or maybe 6 times if you take the engine out to be every 3 years) when the service schedule requires that that item was checked twice. Now, I'm as paranoid as the next Ferrari owner but you've got to admit, that borders on over servicing an engine. My car is pretty low milage but for me the service history that the previous owners have given it is probably not too far from what I would do. She's at 28,000 miles and has had 4 engine out belt changes. Give or take one every 5 years and 6,000 miles. I think I can live with that though I might err on the side of caution and get the next belt change done on the three year point.
The more this thread goes on the less likely that I will do a major on my 355 this winter (I had planned to follow the "every 4 years as it's half way between the initial 5 year Ferrari recommendation and the ammended 3 years". I don't care about stamps in the book (which is a big factor in this discussion).
While I still think you are too rigid in your thinking regarding timelines you are making a good argument with this post. I, like most here I'm sure, appreciate the valuable and free info the pros offer but I find many members of auto forums deify and (for lack of a better word) suck-up to them perhaps in the hopes of receiving future help for their beloved and expensive to maintain Ferrari. So this is a delicate subject... Getting back to why I think you are too rigid with task oriented timelines is that I do think Ferrari's are different than p-cars and many other high end brands. I will go out on a limb and say this. I see Ferrari's (348's anyway) as being poorly constructed - might have something to do with their hand built natures. So, a tech can't assume cut and dry scenarios when working on the car - they are all dynamic and variable in what they need or where they have issues. Perhaps it takes a bit of an artist-tech using a wholistic approach to work on these and do it well.
And yet in the UK I can go into pretty much any indie or main dealer and get a fixed price for pretty much any service on any model of Ferrari. I accept part of the sentiment here but don't think our right hand drive cars are built better than your left (maybe a little, but not much ) I want a service, including an engine out service on a 348 or 355 as per the schedule, I just ask and they give a fixed price for the service. We even have a site called Supercar hub - put in your car details, the type of service, and it scans the fixed prices for the indies and main dealers and gives you a list of options with prices. You then book directly through Supercar hub. So while I do accept that Ferraris are a bit different, I think this just accounts for more likelihood of the shop ringing you and saying something's cropped up. I don't really think it could account for not being able to give a fixed price. Just my opinion, mind you. Edit: http://www.supercarhub.com/ in case you're interested.....
I know what I'm about to say is not going to sit well with some, but here goes anyway. I completed the last engine out major on my 348 in 2004. New belts, new tentioner bearings, new idler bearings, new hoses, all valves adjusted, cams set to the timing marks (yes I know that comment has some gritting their teeth), new fluids, new plugs, new filters, etcetera. I'm still running on the same cam belt over 8 years and 30,000-ish miles later. shock, shock, horror, horror, run for the hills........lol. My car has sat for months and months on end. Been driven couple times a month, then not driven at all. Been driven on just about a daily basis. Done full throttle dyno pulls (of which my car made the most power of the 348's that showed up that day ), driven like an old man, and driven like I stole it. Driven on short trips, driving on 300 mile trips, and driven regularly on 100 mile trips. The belt has not snapped, and I just turned over 81,000 miles on the odometer. Im creeping up on the 9 year mark on the same belt. So it is gonna be time for me to pull the engine again and do another timing belt service. Had I listened to the updated service bulletin schedule, and all the spook stories, I would be coming up on my 3rd engine out major service. Now going by "quoted" major service pricing in the $4000-$6000 range that would = $12,000 - $18,000+ that I would have shelled out, had I paid someone else to perform the work. That doesn't even get into all the "while I'm in there" stuff either, so the number could even get into the $20k range. That is a daggon big chunk of money still in my pocket. Call me nuts, call me brave, call me stupid, say I have common sense, or say I have none. The fact of the matter is, the BELT, in and of itself, has not broken. Having said that, it is my car, and I do have to face the repercussion, or benefits, of my decisions why my car. If something breaks, then I fix it. Of course after I rant and rave about it. But I do not buy into the 3 year/30k engine out major line of view. Like I said, the TIMING BELTS are pretty damn tough. Back to the money I haven't spent on the factories recommended service interval. Even if the belt were to break before I yank out the engine, at worst I'm at the break even point, and at best I still saved money. If the pistons and valve beat the crap out of each other, "se la vie". That would just give my reason to pull the heads and get them ported, bigger valves put in, plus new piston with valve reliefs. I can do lots of nice mods with $20,000. Most will take their cars to mechanics and drop the cash to have the service performed at the factories recommended intervals. But I'm not most people. And yes when I do my engine out service I will be taking LOADS of pics, and I WILL post it up for the 348 Brotherhood to see. As for people seeing what I have done to my car. Pffffftttt big whoopty-do, it's not like you guys don't already know the history of my car anyway. Heck my car is probably the most publicly documented 348 on the planet. "But what about the resale value." Who says it's for sale? Not me. Heck, I may even see how many miles I can put on it. 19k more miles and I flip over it's first 100,000 miles. It's a car people, a CAR, use your common sense. This is all my opinion. Contact your professional mechanic for advice and recommendations before making decisions about the maintenance and service of your car.
Required by law in the state of California. If your bill comes to one dime more, permission must be asked for in advance and comtemporaneous notes as to the method of communication and time and date of communication is is required on the work order. In addition you must sign off on the document for confirmation.
But Ernie ... The topic was ... is it 40 hours or 24 hours to do the timing belt, tensioner, valve timing, engine out service...? So, it is 40 for you or ... ?
Actually the original question was about the belt failing. But to answer your question, after I had everything drained and disconnected it took me about 4 hours to remove it and to put it back in was around 5 hours. That was using two floor jacks by myself. Couple of pumps on one side, couple of pumps on the other, feed through a little bit of the ecu looms, then pump one side, then pump the other, feed more loom through, on and on till the engine came out. What took me the most amount of time was the valve adjustment. Think I spent a full day on just that alone, maybe even two. Finding the correct spec valve shims is a big time chore. The cam timing, meh, TDC and to the marks, easy peasey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, save your breath. I know more fuel for the fire. Of the 348s I know of their cam marks where spot on. Again this is SPECIFICALLY on a 348, not any other Ferrari, but on a 3 4 8.
Cheers Brian but surely this only applies if you have quoted a price in the first place. I've heard this is not always the case over there and often the engine out cam belt services are estimates. Sorry if I've been misinformed - is all the work quoted ie price for the service is agreed before hand? That was the gist of option c.
So, for you it was 5 hours after you disconnect and drain everything. Which means at least 8 hours from the time you lift the hood to start. OK, that means it cannot be done in 4 hours even for Ernie. On the topic of belt life. My 348 previous owner let the belt go 10 years before I bought it and did a service on it. So, belts do last a long time. But ..., on a normal bell shaped curve, some belts will last a long time and some won't, so I do understand why for the sake of the marque, the factory has to suggest a certain interval like 3 years which most of us push out to 5 years. Finally, yes, it is a car, and it is your car. You can do what you want with your car. See you sometimes later this year, perhaps?
Ernie, guess what would be really relevant for this topic would be the close inspection of your belt when it comes out. What kind of shape is it in? The Schedule I have, btw, is the original service schedule for European 348s, may differ from yours, but the belts are down as every 2 years, regardless of milage. Average Ferrari milage in the UK you'd probably be talking a new belt every 5-6,000 miles!!! That's barking mad when many other cars have it on the 80,000 mile service. There's got to br a happy medium somewhere.
Tell you what. When I pull my engine the next time, I'll time it from the first touch of the car to see how long it takes me.
