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348 turbos and superchargers

Discussion in '348/355' started by fatbillybob, Sep 3, 2004.

  1. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    348 turbo, Mark E. and others with 348 turbos and superchargers can you share your stories about your cars with pictures of your set-ups? How about hp and torque figures on dynos and stories about weak parts that could not handle the strain?
     
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  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Bad news, mine's a 308, so I don't know how much would apply. Here's a thread I post with the dyno results. Also, there are links to threads I posted building it.

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24743

    There are only a couple things that are not stock inside my engine. The valve springs have a bit more seat pressure to keep them closed against the boost pressure. I use total seal rings, but I decided to go a little wider than stock on advice of the total seal guys, I remachined the stock pistons to accept 1.5mm top and 1.2mm second ring. They thought the wider ring would live longer in a boost engine. Last is the clutch. I've supercharged the engine twice now. The first setup made 304 rwhp @10psi, that is when I rebuild the engine and as long as it was out, I added a kevlar clutch disc and about 30% more force to the pressure plate. The setup was bullit proof and I was rough with it. Well, It lasted 3 weeks with the second supercharger and then I asbolutely fired it...it seems that once kevlar slips and gets hot once, it done. I've never seen a clutch so burned. I saw a thread by Paul (turboQV) who has about a 450hp turbo QV who said his kevlar clutch was slipping after I thing 6 months, I don't know the out come. I solved my problems with a tilton 7.25" triple disc carbon-carbon. I've got about 1000 miles on it with many hard launches and it seems to work great and the bonus is a much much lighter clutch pedal...I no longer fear sitting in traffic. I think Jeff (348 turbo) also has a kelvar clutch an I think it's been fine for him, so maybe it's just the way I drive :)
     
  4. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    Thanks for your interest. I've written and described this car many times and am still contacted weekly by those who are curious.
    SO, let me just give a brief description of the car, than I'll keep an eye on the thread and answer qustions to the best of my ability.
    1990 348 Twin Turbo by Norwoods.
    Turbontics, (Garrett) T3's set for 15lb.s of boost. Last dyno run indicated 417hp at the wheels. Water/air intercooled, and Motec controlled. The ignition is coil to plug with the motec igniton expander; I've also added a MSD piggy back style capacitive discharge unit. I run Moroso silver core wires onto iridium plugs. Needless to say, it has higher volume injectors. Mark is correct- Kevlar clutch. I had James at Norwoods rework the clutch pack with a Kevlar clutch and up the clamping power. Works fine, nothing spins but the tires. The car was fully built with a turbo motor years ago. At the time, it was the personal car of Bob Norwood. JE racing pistons, changed compression, etc.....
    The regulars here at F-Chat have seen pics many times. Here are a few I have on the computer.
     
  5. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Jeff, Isn't that like the setup that was on your car when you bought it and then you had them add the intercoooler or am I remembering wrong? Do you know how much hp it made before the intercooler was added?
     
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  8. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    similair to what was previously on my car. The car made 315 hp at the wheels. It was running about 10 lb.s of boost at the time. If I had a "stocker", I'd jump all over this.
     
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Nope not the ebay thread. Besides you can never count on the turbo condition. Piping is cheap on the ebay thing and not what you have jeff. If you buy the set-up think value of turbo housings only. I'm not sure if wastegates ever go bad. My reason for the thread is trying to decide if I want more 348 power or just buy a 360/355 or GT3 cup for the race track. I really like my 348 and have put much labor with the best parts into it. Im trying to decide whether to keep it or not. A proper turbo set-up is perhaps 10 grand and at the end you still have a 348. So the labor is a labor of love and the curiosity of whether I could build a 348 as fast as a 360. By fast I mean as in horsepower and handling for track driving only. As a racer I would not be buying used turbos since potential junk defeats my purpose. I am very interested in how turbo cars live. For example I am surprised mike's car has not blow the gearbox third member. 308's don't live past 300hp by reputation and mike is well beyond that and does not baby his car as evidenced by clutch frys. Mike what have you done if any to improve your handling? Jeff, Motec are supposed to be able to do anything. Can you explain the reason for the MSD and how does it integrete with the motec? I thought the motec was a complete engine management spark and fuel. Also, why did you go air/water on the intercooler? For cars I am told that the intercooler efficinecy ar/water is = to air/air but the air/water has bunch more plumbing.
    I am not sure but at this time if I do my own custom unit I'm thinking possibly a centrifugal SC in the a/c compressor spot (space permitting) or twin turbos/ air to air intercooler/ electromotive t3. In all these years I have not been convinced by the complexity of motecs that they are the way to go. I think more like Forza Ferrari's Nick S. that the Electromotive unit is as he puts it the basic working man's ECM. Perhaps if you are trying to get the last HP out of a specific boost level the motec makes sence. Jeff for 400hp what size lb/hr injectors are you using?
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
    19,032
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    Oh yeah the other reasons I like the 348 is because I think the 355 styling is too tame. 348's are more agressive looking to me. I hate 355 steering feel. 348's are more crude on the track and I feel more connected to the road...and mine is crude. It is a hunk of sheet metal with everything gutted and now even lexan windows. I never liked the look of the 360's and I would buy one for the technology only. They are very fast but if I wanted only fast I would just go to the vipers/vettes and have a disposable car. At the level I'm racing around those three cars are about equal on the track. The next level is the GT3 cup. While there are those who claim the GT3 cup is equal with the 360C or 360gtc or 360 whatever...with my own eyes at my level I have seen GT3 cups absolutely kill 360's of any type.
     
  11. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    When I fist started my project I hears the 300-350 hp limit stories too so I when with a supercharger to put me right in that range. But the more looking around I did, I just couldn't find any boost car that had a problem. I think the heart of it is not the hp, it is rpm. To get a 308 2v over 300 hp or a QV over 320hp, you need to spin the snot out of it. I've seen a couple guys claiming 8500 rpm. That puts a lot of load on the internal parts that the factory never planned on. I used to roadrace a bike with almost exactly the same bore/stroke as the 308 and it redlined at 9000, but hp peaked at 8000. I found that if I shifted at about 9000 the engine would live 2 weekends which was 8 20 minute practices and 2 20 minute races. If I shifted at 7500-8000 and just pulled 9000 when I need a pass at the end of a straight or something, the engine lasted all season with no problem. I think the same thing is what is behind the 300 hp limit on 308s.

    For handling I had a set of Ohlins shocks made for it and fitted 450/400 springs f/r. It also had wider tires 225/40-18F and 285/35-18R. I had it out to an autocross recently and found I have a bit more tuning to do, but I think playing wiht the anti-sway bars will sort it out.

    IMO a centrifugal SC is not a great option. They make nice peak hp numbers, but do not make boost over a very wide rpm range. It might be ok for the track, but it will give you nothing down low and less in the midrange than a turbo. The fluid drive paxtons are about the best I guess, they will probably match a turbos performance but are limited to about 8 psi.

    Like Jeff, my car uses a water/air intercooler. I chose it because I just didn't see how to get good air flow in the engine bay for an air/air. Engineering wise, an air/air is a better intercooler because it has less parts, weights less and because it only needs to transfer heat across 1 heatexchange instead of 2 it cools the charge better. But on my car, I just couldn't see how to make it work without cutting vents (think GTO) in the bodywork. The water/air let me build a very neat intake and get plenty of air flow by putting 2 heatexchangers up front next to the radiadtor.

    For fuel, I am running 55lb peak&hold injectors with the fuel pressure at 60 psi. At redline they are at about 85%.

    I am using a haltech E11. Unlike electromotive, it will read almost all OEM sensors and pickups so you won't need to mount a trigger wheel and with an MSD DIS4 will fire your stock coils. I'm pretty sure it ends up about $500 cheaper and easier to install. I don't know if it is any easier than Motec, but it is a lot cheaper. The Motec has more features.
     
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  13. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    Billy,
    Sounds like you've really looked into this already. I'll try to answer your questions.

    As far as power of the turbo'd 348. I think you'd be happy if your car made the same power as mine. I've not driven it on the track, but I'd be very surprised if it didn't easily eat, (read destroy), a 355 or 360. It's simple as that. The feew club drives I've taken it on, I've followed a 360 when he stabbed the throttle. My car ran up on his bumper from behind so hard I had to hit the brakes!
    MSD: I had a start problem once. I was advised, (incorrectly by the way), to add capacitive discharge. Nice system. It fires an arc welder spark, (lol), NO problems at all at full boost. strong spark all the time. Do I really NEED it? Probably not. It simply wires between the computer and the coils. No Motec interface at all. Motec itself is simply awesome. 800 adjustable parameters! Nice box. Pricey though. This was already on the car when I bought it.
    Water/air vs air/air: I've read water to air makes more power. More complicated, no doubt. I've got to say though, I've had no trouble from it at all, none, zero. The decision to do water/air was Norwood's.
    Not sure what the volume on the injectors is.
    BTW- The street drivability of my 348 must be much different than Marks 308. First gear in mine is totally usable and much the same as a stock 348. The clutch is very smooth and very streetable. The car, (as is most turbo cars), is very Jeckle/ Hyde. Hyde shows up at about 4000 RPM and no sign of Jeckle, (or the 360 previously in front of me), any more by about 7000 RPM.
    J
     
  14. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Yeh, our cars dyno almost exactly the same numbers, but the shape of the curves couldn't be more different. A 348 is pretty quick stock so you don't really need help down low to have a nice driver. The stock 308 power is pretty low so I wanted to give it some help across the board, but I may have gotten more bottom end help than I needed, I don't know. But it pulls as hard at 3000 as it does at 7000, I've pretty much forgotten what downshifting is :) I use first gear if my plan is to go slow and gentle, but for a hard fast launch, I start in 2nd and still need to be pretty careful with the throttle. The 308 is probably geared lower than the 348, so that may be part of it too.
     
  15. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    So, how do I get a ride in this beast?
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Well...I guess the first step is to get you and the car in the same state, after that it should be pretty easy. I'd very much like to get a ride in yours some time too. Hopefully an event somewhere in the middle will come along.

    Mark E
     
  17. Ingenere

    Ingenere F1 Veteran
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    Dec 11, 2001
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    These 348 turbos sound pretty cool. My 348 has minimal mods.... small hp increases witgh chips, exhaust, test pipes, big brakes, challenge wheels....probably +30-40hp and 200 less pounds of weight....and I run away from 355's at the track, just about hang with 360s and outbrake both of them....so I can only imagine what the extra boost does for power. I had an F40 for a few years so I would bet that the thrust is pretty close.

    It all sounds like fun....I think I'm going for a drive!!

    Ciao
    Dino
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    "I use first gear if my plan is to go slow and gentle, but for a hard fast launch, I start in 2nd and still need to be pretty careful with the throttle."

    Geez Mark that is better than what I had with nitrous!


    Dino,
    I have spider ECU's, Challenge tube exhaust, solid supension, riding slicks, and totally gutted car and my 348 is nowhere close to a 355. You must have run accross slow drivers.
     
  19. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    "The feew club drives I've taken it on, I've followed a 360 when he stabbed the throttle. My car ran up on his bumper from behind so hard I had to hit the brakes!"

    Now this Jeff is funny! I want to be able to do this!

    Also good tip on the Haltech. I'll also have to find out if the motec can use the stock sensors. This would get me started in a hurry but I understand the 348 MAF really needs to be changed to a MAP since the MAF is a total air restriction.

    Do you guys keep a floppy disc around of your engine map so that if you get hit by a bolt of lightening you can reprogram your ECU's? Have either of you played with your tune via laptop? When you do tune are you doing it on the dyno or by "ass o meter"?
     
  20. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Boost is your freind :) A stock QV makes about 195 rwhp, mine makes 425 rwhp, so you would need 250-300hp shot of nitous just to keep up.

    You would need to go to a MAP for the haltech, it's about $85 and a vacuum hose, pretty easy. The manual is available at
    http://www.haltech.com/
    I've purchase systems for several projects now from Rob at
    http://force-efi.com/
    Good guy, prices are good. I have a pretty good relationship with him, so tell him I sent you if you call.

    I keep every map I have ever even tried on the laptop and also burned to CD, I don't want to have to do it again. I do the baseline tuneing and low power tuning using the numbers from the O2 senor, I bring it up on the laptop along with the map info while it's running/driving. I start at idle and work my way up in rpm at no load in the driveway. when that's done I get it rolling at idle under a little load and try to get low rpm sorted. Then I copy the info to the higher rpm maps as a starting point and slowy work my way up the rev band, as I get one range pretty good, I copy that info the the higher ranges, they are all pretty similar once it gets to 3500 or so. Then it's ready for the dyno, again I stop the first run around 3000, then 4000 and so on to be sure it never runs lean on a pull. My full power air/fuel is 11.5 and seems about right, but I still think it could be a touch richer. At vacuum I run 14.5-14.7.
     
  21. evansp60

    evansp60 Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2003
    383
    Ottawa, Ont. CANADA
    More questions.

    I've called Norwood about the "turbo kit" for the 348 they've mentioned on their website but they haven't got it figured out yet.
    Regarding the Motronic 2.5 in my car...can't find anyone who has a chip for it. What can I do with it in anticipation of a turbo system?
    Does the addition of a turbo system neccesitate the internals being beefed up? I'd heard that the stock internals could handle up to 15lbs of boost.
     
  22. GaryReed

    GaryReed F1 Rookie
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    For grins, here's some pictures I took of a -VERY- modified 348 "twin turbo" that I saw at the Concorso in Monterey.

    I don't know anything about the car, but maybe someone on here does.
     
  23. Jet-X

    Jet-X F1 Veteran
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    Carl, let me know what you end up doing - I may be interested in doing this to my Mondial t. Car never did make enough horses given its weight.

    Anyway, I'm curious what all this costs. I've brought it up to my mechanic and to a performance shop, and they both say the same thing: Upgrade to another Ferrari.
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Your going to want to replace that ECU with an aftermarket like discussed earlier in the thread. That will give you complete control of what the engien is doing.

    The internals are fine fine, ferrari builds bvery good engines. You are limited to 15 psi or so with stock valve springs and the compression is high, so 15 might be a stretch without changing pistons. there is a 355tt thread running now, some of the info will apply to a 348.
    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=134398094#post134398094
     
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Last I heard, to drop it off at norwoood and pick it up with 500hp is around $25k. I used about $10k in parts and 250 hours of my labor to get 500 out of my 308.
     
  26. Jet-X

    Jet-X F1 Veteran
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    I think I'll just buy another Ferrari.....
     
  27. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    That is the smart thing to do....but of course you'll need to spend much more to match the acceleration of a 348tt, or a 308 for that matter. A 360 won't do it by a long shot, the new 430 might, but I doubt it. Road course times yes, acceleration no.
     
  28. evansp60

    evansp60 Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2003
    383
    Ottawa, Ont. CANADA
    Thanks mk_e!

    Being a newbie to this electronic stuff (I've been a carb guy to date) I'm assuming we're talking about an M800 unit.
    How to you setup the initial configuration? (is there somewhere to get a detailed setup?)
     

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