News

348 with a different starting issue.

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by DGeoff3000, Sep 7, 2020.

  1. DGeoff3000

    DGeoff3000 Rookie

    Aug 1, 2020
    10
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Geoff Dean
    Hi,
    I’m a very new Ferrari owner and I bought my 348 just on 3 weeks ago and got repair records for a new timing belt service, new dual plate clutch, new fuel pumps, new fuel pressure regulators and a new fuse panel.
    But I have a different starting issue. It is surprising in that, if I turn off the battery isolator and then back on, the car starts more easily, say 2 or 3 cranks and maybe 5 to 10 cranks when hot... but gradually gets harder and harder for both cold and hot starts until almost impossible - until I switch off/on the isolator and then the cycle repeats. I’m wondering if it could be the main Bosch ECU or something else.
    Im quite puzzled as haven’t seen a thread which quite deals with this problem.
    Thanks for any guidance!
     
  2. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jan 21, 2004
    1,577
    Argent/Brasil
    Full Name:
    Micheal Jordan
    Put an other isolator. Its clear this has a bad contact problem.
     
  3. DGeoff3000

    DGeoff3000 Rookie

    Aug 1, 2020
    10
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Geoff Dean
    Thanks for the suggestion. Excuse the newbie question, but what kind of isolator and connected where?
    Much appreciated!


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  4. DGeoff3000

    DGeoff3000 Rookie

    Aug 1, 2020
    10
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Geoff Dean
    Dahhh, sorry,
    You mean replace the existing battery isolator. I can try that, or temporarily remove it from the circuit. But there doesn’t seem to be any shortage of power to crank the motor, run headlights, fan, radio etc.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  5. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,197
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    Just bypass the isolator and use a good battery ground cable instead, along with a tender. As you probably know, every time the isolater is used you must go through the ECU re-learn process. Simple, yes, but just something to remember.

    Btw, I had a '90 348 ts and currently own a '92 tb, and neither had/has an isolater.
     
  6. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

    Feb 20, 2015
    3,857
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Geoff, the wording of your problem is slightly different in your post on the F348/F355 sub-forum.

    I don't see how a battery isolator would degrade with heat, but Wade hit on a few important factors, including grounds and Motronic ECU relearning. However, there are a lot of variables. We need to narrow things down a bit.

    How does the car run generally? Was the belt service done by a Ferrari specialist?

    Do you leave your battery on a trickle charger? To me, 2 or 3 (or 5 to 6) cranks to start the car from cold doesn't sound good. Do you have something to monitor voltages when you are driving (e.g. a cigarette lighter voltmeter)?

    Are you getting any Check Engine lights? Do you know how to do a test on the ECUs? I don't know if the battery reset is resetting your learned parameters somehow making it easier to start the car. Did your car have time to cool down before you decided to a battery reset? When the car not completely warmed up, it runs in open loop mode using different sensors to the sensors used when the car is warm.
     
  7. MerlinTech

    MerlinTech Formula Junior
    Sponsor

    Mar 5, 2010
    546
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Sounds to me like the self learn in the ECU is trying to correct something and resets when switched off. A scan of the parameters when first started vs when it is hard starting should show something. Then work on what it is compensating for. That is just my guess. Power and ground should not effect it over time like OP describes.
     
  8. DGeoff3000

    DGeoff3000 Rookie

    Aug 1, 2020
    10
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Geoff Dean
    Thanks Qavion and MerlinTech for the additional thoughts and questions.

    Some additional information...

    - I am aware of but have not yet done the ECU relearn process. That is a logical starting point which I will perform this week.

    - The car, once it starts, runs very nicely. It idles nicely at around 1100 RPM without issue and pulls smoothly through all gears. No engine burps or flat spots.

    - All the previously mentioned service work was conducted by a large and reputable Porsche specialist who acquired the car and from whom I purchased it. I don’t doubt all the work was done, but perhaps they don’t have the technical skill set to deal with these Ferrari-specific issues?

    - I do not leave the car on triple charge, but it seems to have no issue cranking over strongly and repeatedly.

    - Thru the miracle of Amazon, I will have a cigarette lighter voltmeter on Thursday and will run a voltage test later this week.

    - I do not know how to test the ECUs and don’t know the process or what equipment is needed.

    - The car did cool down before I did the battery reset and, as I said, started up on the 2nd crank when I did that.

    I’ll report my findings later in the week!

    Thanks again for the support and guidance!.
     
    Qavion likes this.
  9. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

    Feb 20, 2015
    3,857
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    It's probably not common, but I had a problem where my turn indicators hyperflashed when my F355 warmed up. It turned out to be a loose earth above one of the radiators. I was thinking maybe an engine sensor was being affected by a loose earth.

    Geoff, I don't know if your Motronics ECUs have a test button (on a short wiring harness), but here is the test procedure for cars prior to OBD2:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/electrical-wonders.626470/#post-147365114

    Have you downloaded the workshop manual yet?

    If it cranks strongly, then it's probably not likely to be a battery/alternator issue. Anyway, a cigarette lighter voltmeter is a very handy diagnostic tool for these cars as I'm sure you'll get to use it in the future.
     
  10. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    2,628
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    I agree I'd check the voltage before cranking and before and after unplugging the idolater. It does not sounds like that the issue, if the connection was bad it would be bad and the battery would not charge etc all which you can confirm with the cigarette lighter voltmeter.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Do you have any wetness under the clutch pumpkin where the inspection plate is. Its right where the pumpkin meets the engine underneath.
    When hot and you shut down, is there a rattle from the rear of the car?
     
  11. DGeoff3000

    DGeoff3000 Rookie

    Aug 1, 2020
    10
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Geoff Dean
    Thanks again for the continued responses on my issue.

    I have a cigarette lighter voltmeter on order, which I should have later this week and I will do those tests and a cold reset of the isolator and go through the ECU re-learn process. I'll report back on that.

    Meanwhile, there’s no oil under the car or apparent wetness under the clutch pumpkin / flywheel area. However, I contacted the dealer who did the other repairs / upgrades and he suggests and agrees to remove the clutch and re-grease the flywheel which he believes is at root to the hard starting issue. Any comments on that suggestion?

    I’m not sure how fresh grease could fix this problem, but from what I gather elsewhere, re-greasing the fly wheel after 30 years is probably a good idea! That will happen in the next couple of weeks.
     
  12. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    2,628
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Exactly, a MAJOR symptom of a Voith that is unbalanced do to slung grease is a hard to start when warm. Often it is accompanied by leaking triple seals, (hence the question) however simple age will cause it.
    I suspect all the battery connect/disconnect bit is a red herring and unrelated. If you started it the time it started after disconnecting but did not disconnect it
    I bet if would have started. I don't see them related at all.
     
    Qavion likes this.
  13. DGeoff3000

    DGeoff3000 Rookie

    Aug 1, 2020
    10
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Geoff Dean
    OK, I have my marching orders!
    1. Firstly to use a voltmeter and check voltage before, during and after start procedure.
    2. I’ll also do the ECU relearning process as described elsewhere.
    3. And finally I’m getting the fly wheel regreased though that will be a couple of weeks from now.
    I’ll report back after 1 and 2 and you let you know how it’s going
    thank you!
     
    Ferrarium and Qavion like this.
  14. MerlinTech

    MerlinTech Formula Junior
    Sponsor

    Mar 5, 2010
    546
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Explain to me how cycling the battery cut off switch re-balances the grease in the flywheel? I am at a loss here.
    It sounds to me like the engine ECU is reset on its self learn and begins the cycle of learning all over.
    An SD diagnostic will be able to see all this and then maybe you can decide what it is trying to compensate for and fix that.
    Again, if I am missing something, please let me know.
     
  15. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    2,628
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    #15 Ferrarium, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
    It does not, its unrelated. His starting issues is likely Voith needing repacking, Unrelated to any battery cut off.
    As far as SD diagnostic, its a 348 TS....
    Every 348 I know can disconnect the battery for 10 min, plug in and it fires right up. The ECU does not factor in starting as it runs on open loop tables until a) actually fired and idling and b) 02 hit 300 degrees. Then the learning begins.
    My money is on Voith repack. Let's hope the NLA nylon bits are not melted.
     
    Qavion and racer like this.
  16. MerlinTech

    MerlinTech Formula Junior
    Sponsor

    Mar 5, 2010
    546
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Okay, I can see where the flywheel (harmonic balancer in this car) could result in hard starts, but why would cycling the battery cut off make it better for a short time? That is the connection I am missing. I just want to learn, I am not trying to dispute, just learn.
     
  17. DGeoff3000

    DGeoff3000 Rookie

    Aug 1, 2020
    10
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Geoff Dean
    Good Morning,
    So I got my voltmeter have done the voltage check with results as follows...
    - Before start... 12.8 volts
    - During start, 3 x attempts... drops to 11.7, 11.2 and 10.9
    - After start, initially a charge of 14.0 then settling down to 13.6 after 15 mins or so warm up
    The battery is a Bosch and pretty new BTW,
    I also did another relearn process, allowing a 10 minute idle before drive off. Cold start required 3 crank attempts and hot start 7. I've had hot starts requiring over attempts.
    Q's, if you can help...
    - I was kind of surprised the Alt would drop charge after warm up, as my daily driver charges straight 14.0. Is that charge rate ok?
    - Is there a thread somewhere to explain how slung grease and an unbalanced Voith leads to hot start issues. I'd like to understand the issue & solution a bit better.
    - Finally... Should I be concerned about "Let's hope the NLA nylon bits are not melted" and is that something to be attended to when a Voith is repacked?

    Many thanks !!
     
  18. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

    Feb 20, 2015
    3,857
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Sounds pretty good to me. Engine idle usually drops after warm up, so the voltage may go down a little. Also, the battery will have recovered, so won't need so much input.
     
  19. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    2,628
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Again it does not it's likely just a red herring. it's like patting your stomach and head at the same time and saying it keeps dinosaurs away, actually unrelated.

    Is wager it is the voith. As far as the nylon blocks, look at the diagrams to see.

    Also MD clutches has videos on this procedure on youtube.


    Sent using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     

Share This Page