350/400GT thread

Thanks Olivier, Kevin, Uno, Fred, Alberto and all. I am trying to get us to look at the details on GT400 2+2 that are at the beginning of the Marazzi period. The Touring badges, or lack of, are certainly a good marker, but there is always a desire to add jewelry to any car and so there is plenty of contamination in the restored vehicles.
I notice dashboard revision, glove box door, from Fred's #41 to Jack's #151. But this door change does not seem to match badging loss, ...

So right now i am interested in the interiors of builds #130 thru #160.
How about detail interior or engine photos on Jorge's #128? ....that Lambo has a lot of exposure. i seem to have little details..and i ignored it years ago when i should have paid attention.
Cheers
Craig
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I've got myself as 39. How the hell do you have me as 41??

Fred

PS: Kidding about the "tone" -- but not kidding about the numbers!

 

Fred , I am using this listing, which looks very nice to me.
http://www.lamborghiniregistry.nl/default.asp?010020000000/001

 

Also International Lamborghini Registry
http://www.lamborghiniregistry.com/

I have not done the math, simply checked the two sites.
These two Lamborghini Registry sites may not match on all 2+2 build sequences, seems i found 1132 with different numbers.

 

Here's the VLG list Craig:

http://vlg-archives.com/wiki/index.php?title=350/400test

Still a work in progress, but it's "pretty tight"

Wonder where the other 2 cars came from? What numbers they are?

Fred

PS: Check your math Craig, I keep coming up with #39, even on Marcel's list:

http://www.lamborghiniregistry.nl/default.asp?010020000000/001

 

Hi Fred, The sequence follows the Touring numbers, not the Lamborghini numbers...so in order of Touring build numbers 19011=41 ..........or doing the math 19011-18970=41

Marcel's site does have its faulty number problems, but they are easy to understand and the text is too small to review easily.

At least that is my understanding at this time.
Craig
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Oh Oh Oh! Touring numbers.

Ok.

Well, Craig, I don't use that sequence, except for when I'm trying to find the sequence of Touring numbers. ;^D

That explains it

Cheers,

Fred

 

btw, that red car there -- wikipedia used it (that exact photo) to illustrate a 350GT. I had to do a lot of convincing to change their mind. The guys that dominate the Lamborghini entry woudln't know a 400GT if you shot it out of a cannon.

Fred

 

I need some clarifications about 400GT 2+2. Please help if you know...

Touring who built bodies fo the first Lamborghini models was bankrupt in 1967 as I remember. 400GT 2+2 was launch one year before and production continued until 1968. What company built bodies for 400GT 2+2 in 1967-68? Carozzerria Marazzi?

 

Thanks to previous posts I already have answer

Was first Marazzi body for 400GT 2+2 or for 400GT?

 

I believe the first exclusive Marazzi Lamborghini production car was a GT400 2+2 built early 1967 and continuing until the last 2+2.

 

Correct, as far as I know the 400GT cars (ie: Big Window cars with the 400 motor, and both Lamborghini tranny and diff) were built by Touring...as were all the 350GT cars, and the "350GT Interims" -- Big window cars with, lets say maybe a Salisbury diff or ZF tranny, regardless of whether it had a 3500 or 4000 motor.

All those dates are around 1965 -- I don't have them in front of me. But even my car, 400GT 2+2 #655, was a Touring car built in 1966 (and called a 1967)

Marazzi took over production around chassis 1000, probably 1967. Jack could have the first one, chassis 1033, or maybe 1030 is the first one. Somewhere in the very early 1000 series is most likely the first Marazzi -- as far as I know. (and...I don't know!

Fred

 

Any GT400 2+2 show up at Monterey, Jet, downtown, auctions, Quail, Concorso, Pebble, on the street, Lambo dinner/events, etc? Numbers? Photos?

 

Yes, me and Jack. :-D

http://www.400gt.com/misc/concorso-2011/

And there was a 2+2 at RM auction with a no sale at over $200k. Still checking on that.

Craig, I took a close look at Jack's car and could not find a difference between his Marrazzi body and my Touring, except possibly the distance between front arch and crease -- but that varies on a lot of the cars anyway.

I did notice some badge differences -- the firewall badge is interesting (see pix above) and maybe that provides a clue, what with the M on it.

Anyway -- that's about all I know at this point. It was a light show at Concorso, don't know what happened. Change in club ownership? No idea.

Cheers,

Fred

 

Craig, here's the 400GT 2+2 that didn't sell at RM -- #11

http://www.vintagelamborghini.com/vlgforum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29779

>>Today chassis 1195 is fully restored and presents beautifully. The magnificent
V-12 engine has just been rebuilt in 2011 by marque specialists Bobileff
Motorcar Company; it is the original unit fitted to the car, making this a
desirable matching-numbers example. The engine is mated to a well sorted
transmission, drivetrain and brand-new, correct ANSA exhaust system.
With excellent presentation and a known history with just three recorded owners
from new, this 400 GT exhibits higher standards of fit, finish and detailing
than perhaps even those of its original manufacturer. Complete with a
comprehensive service file, original Belgian license plates and a factory tool
kit, this sharp and fastidiously maintained Lamborghini 400 GT 2+2 is one of the
finest we have ever had the pleasure of offering.
<<

Report from Aaron Robinson:
The 400GT was a bit rough: missing hardware, misaligned bumpers, a quickie respray, etc. However, that 350GT was spectacular. Everything on it was perfect.

Report from Alberto:
Saw this at Gari Bobileff's shop. Interior leather is good, but not freshly done. Engine is in the car and front does not sit so proud. Color is interesting, but it is a metallic color

(350GT went for around $400k)

 

Hey Guys -- I'm still working on the theory that Jack's 1033 is the first Marazzi...just for the hell of it.

The car before that was 1030, the Monza (not Marazzi), then there were 3 Miuras before that, then 400GT 2+2 1018.

Does anybody have a shot of the firewall plate of 1018, or even 1015, 1012, etc?

The answer to "what's a Marazzi body" could be on that plate. Jack's says Tipo IGM4831 OM

(I crawled all over Jack's car at Concorso and that's the only difference I could see)

And every firewall plate I've see after Jack's car (only a few, but enough) also says IGM4831 OM.

My car is a Touring and says Tipo GT400 2+2, as do all the other Touring cars I've seen.

Could the answer be in this code IGM4831 OM?

I'm really starting to think that that's the Marazzi ID.

(Or did we already say this before??)

Cheers,

Fred

 

Hi Fred,

Here is what I have: chassis 0982 and 1000, same number as Jack. I think this kind of number(with the "OM") refers to the "Omologazione" number. Example: 9601 OM for the Jarama, 6857 OM for the Espada, 4831 OM for the 400GT 2+2 ? or at least the later ones)


Cheers

Philippe
S2 7987
www.lamborghinimiura.com
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Thanks Philippe, very useful indeed. Do the other cars you mentioned (Jarama/Espada...) have the IGM or I G M in front of the number?

Clearly at a certain point this numbering changed from "Tipo GT400 2+2" to "Tipo IGM4831 OM." (don't ask me why I haven't been collecting these firewall numbers over the years, but I haven't!

Cheers,

Fred

 

Hi guys,

Yesterday, with help from Kevin, Fred, Craig and Jack, I came on this simple list, that shows that Jack's car is most likely the very first Marazzi car:


23910 = production #160 = #1096 = Marazzi
23909 = production #159 = #1087 = Marazzi
23908 = production #158 = #1060 = Marazzi
23907 = production #157 = #1042 = ?
23906 = production #156 = #1057 = ?????? USA Fred?
23905 = production #155 = #1063 = Marazzi (England)
23904 = production #154 = #1054 = ?
23903 = production #153 = #1039 = Marazzi (Thomas car)
23902 = production #152 = #1036 = ?
23901 = production #151 = #1033 = Marazzi (Jack's car)
23900 = production #150 = #1009 = Touring ! (Australia)
23899 = production #149 = #1018 = ?
23898 = production #148 = #1015 = ?
23897 = production #147 = #0997 = ? pics? (France)
23896 = production #146 = #0952 = ?
23895 = production #145 = #0991 = ?
23894 = production #144 = #0994 = ?
23893 = production #143 = #0976 = ?
23892 = production #142 = #0985 = ?
23891 = production #141 = #0988 = ?
23890 = production #140 = #982 = ? in the USA!
23889 = production #139 = #973 = Touring 100%
23888 = production #138 = #1000 = Touring? not on sides, but on dash and rear.

As Craig pointed out, these car were probably build in batches of 50 units, and #151 is the first of a new batch, this time by Marazzi.

I lost some pictures of #1057, a black car in the USA, under resto recently,
Does anybody have them in your files perhaps?

Ciao!
Marcel

 

Hi Marcel,

I'm beginning to think there are 3 ways to determine the first Marazzi car, and all three point to Jack's 1033 as the car.

By chassis number (26 is Craig's 1132):
http://www.vintagelamborghini.com/vlgforum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29694&start=340

By Marazzi (Body) number:
(what you've just done above)

And by "50" number:
(Jack's is car #1 in the next series of 50, being that it is body number is 23901)

So, if we go with the very plausable theory that:
"production car #151, with body #23901, is the first Marazzi car"

Then that's Jack's car.

I say we just go with that until somebody proves otherwise. It certainly makes sense.

Fred

 

I have a few parts from a 350/400. Tach drive.tach drive cam,tach drive end cover.
Inside door handle, and other odds and ends. Plus I have a factory 350 GT wire diagram, which I think will also work for the 400 and Islero.

I also have several other body and interior parts. Got to find them first. Will post pics once I put my hands on them.
Was going to put everything on ebay, but thought I would post it here first.
Chadbourn Bolles
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Nice 18 pages article in the last issue of the french magazine "Rétroviseur" n°270 - September 2011.

With the contribution of Neldo Levy (www.autodrome.fr) and E.Ciclet.
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Man, what a nice car & restoration:

http://www.autodrome.fr/lamborghini_400gt_2+2.htm

They're asking $370k for this 400GT 2+2. Normally I'd say that's too much, but in this case the car really is a stunning restoration, probably worth that much.

Fred

 

I like this from the article:

>>
350 et 400 GT Lamborghini are now recovering the value that they should have, around 200/250.000 Euros – when in top condition - , getting closer every day to the level of the Miura.

In effect, this model is very important in the history of Lamborghini : first as the first model of the make, that established the reputation of Lamborghini as the only true rival of Ferrari – the then world leader of Sports car -, with technical superiority over the Ferrari of the period. But also these are very rare cars (about 220 examples only of the 400 GT 2+2, less than the Miura), and remain an extraordinary luxury Gran Turismo cars, fabulous to admire with their very original and elegant Touring design and also a delight to drive, once restored to the highest level as this one will be in a few months.

Its delicate roof rests on thin pillars, and its elegance in enhanced by large glass panels : these very original general shapes are beautifully polished and balanced, but still remain absolutely unique and give the car an unforgettable, classy identity.

This automobile was developed by the very best engineers of the period : Gianpaolo Dallara, Paolo Stanzani, Giotto Bizzarini (the man who created the 250GTO for Ferrari), and even Ferruccio himself participated in its innovative conception. For the wise investor, looking at the best 50-60s models, the 350 / 400 GT 2+2 compares favourably to the Ferrari 250 GT Lusso, which now cost between 350.000 and 450.000 €, but has less character, and has aged more rapidly in terms of drivability, technique, and performance.

As a matter of fact within ten years (in 73 Ferruccio Lamborghini sold his last shares of the Company), Automobili Lamborghini had developed and built some of the very best cars ever made, cars that directly influenced the whole GT market for the rest of the century : Miura, Islero, Jarama, Countach, Espada, Marzal…The 350 and 400 GT 2+2 founded a generation of thoroughbred sports cars that still remain unsurpassed in terms of concept, style and audacity.

Such a complete restoration of a classic Lamborghini like the 400 GT 2+2 takes a lot of time and specialised craftsmanship ; cost is very high. But when the restoration is completed, what you get is a master-piece, the best that you could dream of.

 

Fred: Interesting reading - I agree 100 % on the article. The 350/400 is so unique and exotic. Even at these prices it is surely undervalued - like most old Maseratis 3500/Sebring...

On my Ipad I have an App from Keith Martin. See picture below. Is it really correct that the 400 GT 2+2 had poor build quality? - In my world I see the 350/400 as a very wellbuilt car!
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