Hi All, Still working hard to undo unoriginal issues done by idiot garages on my babe. So they replaced my original fuel pumps with 2 Electronic Facet PUR-476087-E ones, 4.5-5 PSI @ 36 GPH... http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/4954/Facet_Fuel_Pumps I do not like its noise and by far prefered the vintage tic tic tic noise on the original electro-mechanical pumps which were fine with no issues... Luckily I requested to have them back... I was told that these Facet would improve performance, which they do, but fear that these Facet pumps are unhealthy for my engine by constanly pumping fuel, can anyone please confirm this or put his thoughts/opinion on these Facets vs putting the original back in, which I am strongly considering ?? Many Thanks Ciao Carlo Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
The original pumps were not the most reliable and is why many cars had them replaced. It really depends how you plan on using your car. It is not fun being on the side of the road with a faulty fuel pump. The factory probably installed two pumps in parallel since a single pump did not have the volume capacity to feed the 3 Webers under load. On the positive side if one pump fails the other should be able to supply enough fuel for you to limp back home. The same cannot be said of the Facet pumps as a single pump can easily provide enough fuel volume to satisfy the 4 Webers on the V8 engines. Let's just say that with two Facets your car has plenty of redundancy even if one pump should fail. What I do not see in this setup is a fuel regulator, which you will need if you keep the Facet pumps. You can install a fuel filter/regulator as used on the Maserati V8 engine cars. The original pumps do not need the regulator. If you decide to re-install the original pumps a good test would be to run the car with only one pump and then with only the other. I would be interested in your results. Ivan
Thanks Ivan for the insights, good points indeed... Could you specify exactly what kind of fuel regulator to put on and where to get it please? Not sure if I understood you correctly, by fuel regualtor do you mean fuel filter, if so it still has the original fuel filter which is a little more up front... As you mentioned the quite powerful Facet pumps, I am worried that they are too strong for the engine and might create some damage... What kind of fuel pumps do you equip your 3500GT, especially for example the Blue Vignale you sold ?? Many Thanks Again Cheers Carlo
Hi, I do notice that the Facet pumps are "Hard mounted" rather than using the rubber mounts. That will be the source of most of noise that is a bother. Regards Ian.
With the new pumps you need a fuel pressure regulator. THe Weber Carbs do not work well with more than 3psi fuel pressure. As Ivan noted the V8 cars come with a fuel pressure regulator. Any auto parts store can sell you a good regulator. But not all go down to 3psi
Thanks for the useful info Eugene... Not sure if the guy put somekind of regulator, because my 3500GT runs great on these 2 pumps, it litteraly flies compared to the stock pumps... I found the fuel regulator used on the V8 ones, at MIE ist sells for $155, quite pricy...
Carlo, Since your car runs better with the Facet pumps it appears the original pumps were not doing their job, therefore why put them back on. This is what I would do: 1. Put rubber mountings on the pumps. As was mentioned they will surely quiet things down 2. Put an inline fuel regulator that you can buy at a local parts store. I would put the regulator near the pumps so that it cannot be seen by show judges. The one used on the V8 is actually a combination of regulator and filter and there is no need to use that one as you mention that your car already has a fuel filter up front. I do not recall a fuel filter being stock on the Vignale spyder but it is a good idea anyway. 3. Measure fuel pressure and adjust the regulator to between 2.5 and 3 psi. You may want to measure pressure now before installing the regulator, I would not be surprised if you are running 6 to 8 psi. Ivan
Hello Carlo, I had my Maserati 3500GT not used for 30 years. When I commissioned the car in 2009, no pump would work. I found both well protected in a very dirty plastic bag. They lokked like new, but the membranes had become so hard and stiff that the magnet could not move it any more. Tried to buy new membranes from the manufacturer (SECONDO MONA SpA in Somma Lombardo, Varese) Not possible. Have made myself new membranes, composed of several layer of the finest rubber-tissue. Works well. Personally I would leave the new Facets in place: I havenot heard their noise, but the original are not silent either. Keep the "MONO FLUX" original pump in stock, so if you one day sell your car to a Originality-Fanatic, you can give him these pumps..... I don't thick there is any problem technically speaking with your new pumps. Wilfried/Lavaux
Hi Carlo, I found this thread today. I own an early 3500GT, year 59 VIN101*566 and my car is in a rather original condition. The car was running in Italy for a long time and has got a soft restoration at the end of the 90ies. I also have 2 Facet pumps instead of the original ones. But as you can see, the previous owner did not mount the pumps outside behind the right wheel. The pumps are mounted at the right end of the trunk where the spare wheel is located. I can fully agree to Ivan because 1. I mounted the pumps with rubber mountings 2. I used a KING Filter which includes a fuel pressure regulator. Without this pressure regulator the pumps had brought too much fuel to the carbs, that always one the 3 Webers (DCOE 6) was leaking and the car did not run. I did not measure the pressure, because the factory based standard installation of the KING Filter was quite well, to bring enough but not too much fuel to the carbs. Since installing the rubber mounting and the KING Filter the Facet pumps do not make any noise and the car runs very well. If you need more information about the filter, please let me know, I can send you the product description and the mounting instruction. Try it and I think you will be happy. Regards Alfred p.s. If you do not want to put the original pumps in stock I would be interested in buying it. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Many Thanks Alfred for your insights... Nice 3500Gt you've got :)) I will keep my Facets in, add rubbers and add a regulator, did you buy yours at MIE, is it the one that costs $150 ?? Also I will keep and not sell my original pumps, they were working perfectly before taken out and heard they are extremly rare to find... Also I like to keep them with the car to conserve its originality... Cheers Carlo
Hello Carlo, I think it is the best idea to keep the Facet's, these are very strong pumps and in combination with the rubbers and the regulator I think you will be happy. The KING Filter I did not buy at MIE, because of customs and taxes. A friend of mine found it in Austria at Jansen Competition GmbH, A-3244 Ruprechtshofen. The price was about 80. But if MIE can deliver I think for you it will be easier to buy at MIE in the States. If you need help please send me an email. To keep the original MonoFlux is also a very good idea, I also would do this. Keep them well maintained in stock you always can sell it in future, if you sell the car and the new owner is not interested in originality. I am looking for 2 pumps for my Vignale (a very early one, #871) but these pumps are not easy to find. If you here of some, please let me know. Good luck and have a nice time Alfred
I am restoring 101.1317 and would like to find the diaphragms for the mono flux fuel pumps. Failing that, where would I find the material to remake them, please. Bill LeMasters
The Master Pebble Beach restorer Butch Denison at Denison International in Puyallup WA rebuilt both of my Mono Flux pumps. You do not want to know how much it cost to rebuild them, but they do work well after the rebuild. He may have more diaphragm material. Good luck. Ciao, FGM
Bill Motion Industries has the proper diaphram material to rebuild thes pumps. Motion Industries also has various shops around the country that will rebuild thes pumps. They are in the business of rebuilding industrial equipment hydrauli and fuel. They are my priamary sourse when I need hydraulic belts and bearings
There is a another thread that addresses these pumps. To be honest I was a bit shocked at how much people were paying to have these pumps rebuilt. These pumps have few moving parts. Other that replacing the diaphragms, cleaning the points and perhaps adjusting the spring tension and setting the point gap there is not much to do. Of course, if your pump is heavily corroded or burnt to a crisp, that is entirely a different story. I send my two diaphragms, along with the shafts, to Jim Wallner of Motion Products Inc. Cost for both diaphragms installed on their shafts was $60, and that includes shipping! I have yet to rebuild my pumps and may have to retract what I said about them be easy. But at this low cost it sure is worth me trying to do it myself. Jim Wallner is at [email protected], 920-725-1266 Ivan Image Unavailable, Please Login
Another potential weak link with the original pumps is the thin, braided copper wire that grounds the motor inside. On my very original '61 3500 GT, AM101-1512, which sat for probably 20 years out doors, the car was brought back to life by flushing & sealing the fuel tank, and replacing all the rubber hoses & lines. The 2 original fuel pumps seemed to work fine, so they saw no attention. One day, after pulling out of my garage, the car acted like it ran out of gas. One of the pumps quit working (the car would not run with just the one pump). I had been running the car without the protective shield that diverts water from the right-rear tire. My pumps were full of water, and the tiny braided copper wire was corroded away! I robbed a thicker braided wire from an electric brush out of an electric motor (I think a drill motor in this case). I make sure and have the protective shield in place at all times now also. RF.
Thanks to all for the helpful input on the pump diaphragms. I may be missing something too but, seems to me that they are just an electric motor and should be easily rebuildable. I will send the diaphragms to Motion Products for remake and do the motors in the garage. I will also revisit the ground wires. Thanks again. I have four so I will do them all and keep two as back up. Sounds like the Facets are better but I want it to be as it left the factory. Just my unfortunate fixation. I will try to up load a photo or two as requested by Walter but 1. it will be my first attempt and 2. The car is all apart so it doesn't look very good yet. I am putting the rear end back together this week and will have the car on it's tires soon. Also, I really appreciate this thread and especially the incredible amount of helpful detail provided by Ivan Ruiz. Clearly, he was the one who should have gotten 504 in spite of how jealous we all are! Bill LeMasters 101.1317 Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hey Ivan very cool you provided this pic... I totally agree that these pumps are simple units with very few moving parts, I was chocked as well when I saw the bill of $4-5K to rebuild them and thought this was really overdone and way too expensive... Am in the middle of rebuilding mine, the only hard part is to remove the rivet holding the membranes between 2 washers... I try the method of filing lateraly arround the rivet so to leave some material to be re-used by using a punch... I filed too much and lukily you provided this pic, since Jim Wallner took the rivet part out and replaced it with a philips screw... My question, can you tell if Jim created a tread within the rivet bolt or did he simply used a metal screw ?? Best would be, only if possible, if you could remove the screw/bolt and provide me with the measurements, diameter and lenght... Many Thanks Ivan Cheers Carlito
Bill, Your car looks fantastic! I especially like the fact that you have the seats installed without an engine or transmission. That is what I call wishful thinking! Ivan
Hi Ivan, Thanks. The seats are just there for storage until it is time for upholstery and it helps me think about color for the seat which I believe will be a lot less yellow. These are the original leathers but the material out of sight is much more towards a camel color which Maserati apparently translated to Chestnut from what I have been able to uncover. I just finished repainting the center of the axel to the primer red plus a matte clear. When we took it out, it had red on it but I just assumed it was a primer under the black and painted the whole thing black. I guess I just have to be more critical of what I find in this mechanical forensic process. Bill
Ahhhh, mine just failed me...........in the middle of one of our Bay Bridges here near San Francisco! It was acting up, not supplying enough fuel at high demand (something they are called upon regularily). Got her towed home (although I do carry a spare universal onboard.........but didn't feel like getting dirty, or involved so close to home). One working pump wasn't enough to keep the car running. Everything seemed OK upon diss-assembly, no clogs, no dirt, filter & lines clear, carbs clear, but one of the pumps was acting intermittantly. Even after thorough inspection & cleaning. The diaphrams seem fine with no leaks. It's like the plunger gets stuck. It needs a "rap" to get going again. The points seem fine also. Me thinks I'll opt for a modern solenoid style pair of pumps to replace them though. Hopefully this will give the same "ticking" noise, and the correct low pressure performance. I've been combing the net for such an animal, but nothing really springs up. Does anyone have any suggestions on such a replacement pump? I wish to keep my originals though, as the rest of the car is so un-altered. RF.
The Bendix pumps used on the early V8 models (QP1, Mexico, Indy, Ghibli) were the ticking type. One of those pumps supplied enough fuel to keep four Webers happy, so you would not need two pumps. You should not have too much trouble finding a good used Bendix pump. You will need a regulator. Another possible alternative is a SU pump as used on Jaguar e-type and many other British cars. They are also tickers and readily available new. No regulator would be needed but I am not sure of the fuel volume. My gut feeling is it would work fine as the Jags have three thirsty SU carbs. Ivan
RF, I just mounted a Holley fuel pressure regulator to go with the Holley red fuel pump that I am using on mine. Both mounted up easily using existing holes. I will still be able to use the original Fispa fuel filter and it will all be hidden under the fuel pump cover.
Ivan & Mfletch, Thanks much for the responses. Wondering if I can see any photos of the Holley unit, and it's installation. It sounds like the easiest to source? Many Thanks, RF. [email protected]
