3500GT Vign.Spy. Electronic Fuel Pump?? | Page 2 | FerrariChat
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3500GT Vign.Spy. Electronic Fuel Pump??

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Arakis36, Jul 22, 2010.

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  1. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    #26 thecarnut, Jul 19, 2011
    Is the Holley pump a ticker?

    Ivan
     
  2. redfred84

    redfred84 Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
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    #27 redfred84, Jul 19, 2011
    Would the "solenoid" style pumps be considered the "tickers"? And do they all stop automatically when full pressure is reached, like the originals?
    Thanks, RF.
     
  3. mfletch

    mfletch Formula Junior

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    #28 mfletch, Jul 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here are pictures of my fuel pump, pressure regulator, and filter. I just finished the installation today. Summit Racing is probably the cheapest source of the pump and regulator. I'm sorry Ivan, I do not know if it is a ticker. The one time that I started the car with this pump, I was so busy listening to the engine and the blown out exhaust, I did not notice the fuel pump. I will have it running in a week or less and I can report back.
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  4. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

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    #29 Arakis36, Jul 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    Just got through replacing those horrible FACET electronic pumps that some idiot mechanic put in there, which IMO never belong in a 3500GT...

    As mentioned before, I just put HARDIs German made, electromagnetic pumps in there and love them... Guarantee they will tic tic tic, maybe not as loud but still very similar and really the best pumps for your WEBER carbs... Best of all you do not need a regulator as these will adapt themselves automatically to the demands of the carbs, I think based on pressure (don't ask me how it works, have no idea about the technicals)... These pumps are great, high quality and GERMAN made... You need to adapt some braket to screw them on there... About $250 for 2 of them, incl. shipping UPS to USA... Model 18812 (there's a typo, they meant over 100HP). I painted mine in flat back not so not to be too apparent... I know the connections look like crap, this is just temporary as I am having new copper Y connector 8mm into 10mm made...

    http://www.hardi.de/verge.htm

    Cheers
    Carlito
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  5. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    #30 thecarnut, Jul 21, 2011
    Did you buy the pumps directly from Hardi? They look good.

    According to their website the pump puts out .35 bars, which is approximately 5 psi. That seems a bit high and you may want to consider adding a regulator. I would connect a fuel pressure gauge on the line going to the carbs to verify the pressure at the carbs. Approx 2.5 psi is the norm.

    I would think a single Hardi pump would be more than capable of supplying enough fuel volume where a second pump in parallel is not needed. Remember that the reason why your car originally had two pumps is that the original pumps just did not have the fuel volume capacity to keep up with the demands of the engine.

    Ivan
     
  6. redfred84

    redfred84 Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
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    #31 redfred84, Jul 21, 2011
    Ah, these look good. Where can one purchase them? Where does one purchase the later model Maserati pumps previously mentioned also?
    many Thanks, RF.
     
  7. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

    Jul 27, 2007
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    #32 Arakis36, Jul 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yes I bought them directly from hardy you can contact them via email or phone they speak english and are knowledgeable about their product application...
    I really like their old school look rather than a modern electronic fuel pump that looks as if it came straight out of a high performance dragster...

    Hardi Dr. Richard Schröter GmbH & Co.
    Bielefelder Str. 5
    10709 Berlin
    Telephone +49 - 30 - 864 733 0
    Telefax +49 - 30 - 862 11 47
    e-Mail [email protected]

    Agree would be interesting to put a fuel pressure gauge to see what PSI they put out... One can be enough, as I know that the old monoflux were not that powerful, but these pumps were recommended to me by a German specialist in 3500GT Vignale Spyder restoration and he told me with these you do not need a regulator since these self adapt to the demands of the carbs, so they do not put constant pressur on the carbs as electronic fuel pumps do, which made my carb leak fuel since I did not have a regulator...
    Also I carefully monitored the HARDI functioning and they seem to alternate in a irregular manner when delivering fuel to the carbs, they never work simultaneously, and only 1-2clic every 2-3 sec one or the other... If you add their alternation, it can be considered as if you had 1 pump working all the time, you simply add a higher reliability rate on the pumps since one has to work twice as less...
    There are other pumps that have lower PSI, such as 13312 with 0.15 BAR = 2.2 PSI or 14412 with 0.2 BAR = 3 PSI... But not sure if they'll be enough since HARDI classify their pumps based on HP of the cars, and German engineering is quite accurate... I am quite happy with the 18812 that I put in for the moment as my original monoflux are being rebuild, still debating whether to put them back in...

    Cheers
    Carlito
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  8. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

    Jul 27, 2007
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    #33 Arakis36, Jul 22, 2011
    Contact/order them via email and check out their site http://www.hardi.de/indexe.htm

    Hardi Dr. Richard Schröter GmbH & Co.
    Bielefelder Str. 5
    10709 Berlin
    Telephone +49 - 30 - 864 733 0
    Telefax +49 - 30 - 862 11 47
    e-Mail [email protected]

    For the later model Maserati pumps, ask them what would be the best fit...

    Cheers
    Carlito
     
  9. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #34 staatsof, Jul 22, 2011
    They weren't original to a 3500GT but then neither are the ones you chose.

    What did you find to be so horrible about them? They were used as OE on a lot of cars in the 1960's through 1980s as well as in racing applications. They are used today on airplanes which is rather more critical than a vintage car and are widely utilized in the marine industry.
     
  10. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

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    #35 Arakis36, Jul 22, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
    - Electronic NOISE in a vintage car
    - Looks like crap
    - too powerful

    READ my threads and you'll understand... The ones I have in there are temporary, if you READ my threads, I am having my original rebuilt... Originality is best but sometimes if you want more reliability its cool to have as close as possibe to originality, ie HARDI pumps since they are electro mechanical...

    My arguments are not about FACET quality if you READ my threads
     
  11. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #36 staatsof, Jul 22, 2011
    I'm not going to go find all your threads.

    "looks like crap" OK to each his own I guess.

    I can hear mine click on the Espada I recently installed it in. Are you getting electronic noise through your radio or what? I can clearly hear the audible noise change in the pump once the bowls have been filled but I'm fairly certain it's not the same sound as the original pumps on the 3500GT. Is that what makes this a crap pump?

    The pumps you put in presumably have a built in pressure regulator limiting their output to what a Weber likes to see. The Facet pumps were typically installed in Italian cars with the Fispa pressure regulator with glass bowl and integral filter. You can buy quite a variety of configurations for proper pressure and flow requirements. These pumps and regulators are so very available over here in the USA too.

    I'm with Ivan on this subject, though my Espada came with no regulator at all! I added one.
     
  12. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

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    #37 Arakis36, Jul 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
    - No noise thru the radio, but the constant electronic whisling, more common to later sports cars such as BB 512...

    - by "looks like crap" I mean: a super modern pump in a vintage car destroys its harmony of originality, don't tell me it looks beautiful... Just like those idiots that take the original engine out of a 3500GT and replace it with a modern V8, sensless...

    - Weber does not like to see 7PSI go to them, regulator is mandatory, am not arguing about that...
     
  13. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    #38 thecarnut, Jul 23, 2011
    Fuel pumps essentially come in two flavors. Those that vary their speed to maintain a pre-set output pressure and those that run all the time and have an internal regulator that maintains a constant output pressure. Older "ticker" pumps, such as the original Monoflux, Bendix and SU pumps were of the type that vary their speed to maintain a constant output pressure. Manufacturers then discovered it was more effective to keep the fuel pump motor running all the time and regulate the output pressure internally.

    In any case, a fuel pump has no way of knowing which type of carburetors are installed nor what pressure they need. Therefore you must read the specs to determine what pressure and volume a pump outputs and more importantly is to put a gauge at the carbs to determine what exactly is happening. According to the Hardi specs that pump puts out 5 psi, which in my opinion is a little too high for those Webers. I would regulate the pressure down to 2.5 psi. You will probably not see any immediate difference in performance but in the long run it should prevent the carbs from overflowing due to fuel pushing pass the float jets and causing the engine to run rich.

    Just my 2 cents ...

    Ivan
     
  14. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

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    #39 Arakis36, Jul 23, 2011
    Interesting and agreed... What kind of fuel pressure gauge do your recommend ???

    Thanks
    Carlo
     
  15. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #40 staatsof, Jul 23, 2011
    Are we talking about the same pump? This basic design has been around since the 1960s albeit updated internally now. I'm not talking about their compact square ones but this one:

    http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/4954/Facet_Fuel_Pumps

    It's not authentic for you car and no it's not beautiful.


    This is square one:
    http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=facet+fuel+pumps&hl=en&prmd=ivns&resnum=4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1680&bih=931&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=11233075390286746526&sa=X&ei=zOQqTrnMO471gAed3ISVCw&ved=0CHYQ8gIwBw
     
  16. Sunracer

    Sunracer Formula Junior

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    #41 Sunracer, Jul 23, 2011
    You will probably not see any immediate difference in performance but in the long run it should prevent the carbs from overflowing due to fuel pushing pass the float jets and causing the engine to run rich.

    Just my 2 cents ...

    Ivan[/QUOTE]

    Or worse overflowing and leading to a fire or filling a cylinder on a stgopped motor and causing a hydraulic lock in the engine.
     
  17. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    #42 thecarnut, Jul 23, 2011
    Discount parts store will have an inexpensive gauge that reads vacuum and fuel pressure. Get one that reads up to 10 psi and not one designed for fuel injected cars.

    Check ebay auction 360381585379 to see what one of these gauges looks like.

    Ivan
     
  18. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

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    #43 Arakis36, Jul 23, 2011
    Yes correct, the round one, on the very first thread of this subject you can see pics of them mounted
     
  19. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

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    #44 Arakis36, Aug 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Got my pumps tested, see pics (no regulator) to see what really happens:

    - 2x Hardi mod. 18812 = 3.2 PSI, constant @ different RPM
    - 2x Facet = 7.2 PSI, you were right way too high...

    Thoughts:

    I was surprised about the Hardis, although the manuf specs state 5.5 PSI, mine only showed a steady 3.2 PSI, pretty nice since close to the 3 PSI for Webers... Maybe these Hardis do have a way to self adjust to carb demands...lol... Explaining as well, the reason why the German restorer told me that I didn't need a regulator... Prooving, also my point that HArdi is a way safer alternative than Facet without using a regulator that is... I will however put a regulator which will put it at 3PSI (see pic)... Overall I tested the Hardis on the road and made the Vignale Spy. run as it should, smooth, keeping performance but not as brutal in take off as the FACETs. The FACET made the Vignale run like a beast, very aggressive, fun but not good for the Webs in the long run + made one of them leak...
    Personally, I love Hardis, they tic tic tic like the original Monofluxs and for that vintage touch they do great... I am having my Monofluxs rebuilt but will use the HArdis for reliability...

    Schuss
    Carlito
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  20. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #45 staatsof, Aug 7, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2011
    If your fuel pumps are functioning properly and fuel pressure is regulated properly switching from one style of pump to another should make zero difference. If it does then something was not function properly to begin with. The leak on one of the Webers was your clue. It was overwhelming the float & needle valve. That WOULD make the engine run erratically or worse ...
     
  21. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

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    #46 Arakis36, Aug 8, 2011
    Agreed, but in my case Fuel pressure was never regulated, thus there was a considerable difference when switching pumps, i.e. from electronic 7.2 PSI to electro-mechanical 3.2 PSI pumps...

    One carb was leaking some fuel out due to fuel stagnating when you looked inside the air intake you could see fuel flooding, while in the other carbs that extra stagnating fuel does not appear... Strange enough this did not make my engine run erratic, rather the contrary made it run like a beast... this due to the Facet pumps pushing at 7.2PSI...

    Carlito
     
  22. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #47 staatsof, Aug 8, 2011
    Now it is so everything is fixed.

    As I mentioned before one of my cars, an Espada, came with the Facet style (then called Bendix) pump and no fuel pressure regulator feeding 6 40DCOEs. So when I rebuilt the fuel system and a new pump went in I added a regulator. It's possible that back in the day Lamborghini had Bendix build a pump that worked out just right in that car with no regulator. Not such a great idea but easily remedied.
     
  23. wlemasters

    wlemasters Rookie

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    #48 wlemasters, Oct 7, 2011
    Per Ivan's suggestion, I sent my old Mono Flux fuel pump diaphragms to Motion Products. It took a while but they are back. I will post results after testing.

    Bill LeMasters
     
  24. 61 3500GT

    61 3500GT Rookie

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    #49 61 3500GT, Apr 4, 2025
    This is a fascinating and very helpful thread. My car is a Series 1 with chassis number 101 D 1018 (photo attached). The fuel pumps failed to come back to life last week following a few months of lay up over winter. The UK experts for old Maseratis are McGraths and they're proposing to fit Facet Red Tops which they've had good experience with. My question is - somewhere in this thread I've read that there should be a splash panel in front of the pumps to prevent road dirt from getting at them. I've attached a photo of mine - covered in dirt - with no splash panel in place - but with a possible bracket circled in red where perhaps a splash panel would attach? Can anyone share a photo of the splash panel in place so I can see what I'm missing? Many thanks. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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