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355 30k Labour hours?

Discussion in '348/355' started by action jackson, Mar 2, 2009.

  1. action jackson

    Dec 11, 2008
    10
    All right boys, I have a question for those of you who have completed your own 30k service on a 6speed 355. The 355 needs a major, and I am considering doing it on my own. My buddy owns a GM dealership, as times are slow, he has let some people go. Anyway, he has a free bay and is willing to let me use it for a week (free of charge) to work on my 355.

    I know my way around cars, but have never done the 30k or worked much on the ferrari before. The few independant shops here in BC want $6000US ($7682 canadian plus taxes) to do the major. I don't quite understand why they are asking in US dollars, but thats besides the point, it sounds a little high. So I figured maybe I could save some $$$ and really learn more about the car by doing the major myself. I was thinking about ordering the 30k kit from Ricambi.

    Now, do you think that one week would be sufficient for the 30k? I was thinking maybe 1-1.5 days to drop the engine (great write ups on this forum, 8-12 hours per day). 1-1.5 days to put the engine back in. So we are at 3 days total here. Then another 1-2-3 days to work on the motor itself (I can have the bay for 6 days)? I was going to do the 30k at home, but I do not have a hoist so that would likely increase the difficulty of completing this task.

    so lets say I have a hoist at the dealership:
    10-12 hours to drop engine?
    10-12 hours to install engine?
    lets say up to 16 hours to work on motor?
    Total 40 hours?

    Sound reasonable?
     
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  3. zero

    zero Guest

    Apr 24, 2007
    776
    #2 zero, Mar 2, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
    I have found there is not alot of difference in time to take out an engine using a lift or floor jacks. Both methods will have the engine out on the same day. After all if the floor jack method is an hour longer. Chances are you are not going to start on the belts and filters anyway on that first day.
    Changing the belts/tensions and filters ect will not take you very long anyway, it can be easily done in a day. Apart from the removal and replacement of the engine. The two most time consuming parts of the service are these.
    (1)You may choose to strip and clean and paint the engine and bay thoroughly, or just a quick clean up its your call. Thats what takes up most of the time in a self executed engine out 30K, the cleaning.
    (2) During your engine out experience you may find say, a leaking gasket or seal that needs replacing. Unless you have the parts already then this will add to the time of the whole job while you wait for them.
    So to answer your original question. Just to do the bare essensuals of a 30k then a week is easly enough time. The problem is that there can be so many variables that can add to the time. And working against the clock in those conditions can be a royal pain.
     
  4. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Troy Wood
    #3 troy_wood, Mar 2, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
    Scope creep was a real issue with my 30K (348). Seemed that with every task there was always a few more that coulda/shoulda been done. Some I did do and some I left be for next time. I would not like the idea of working against the clock as well. If you order a 30k kit from Daniel it comes with the cam seals - would you be pulling the cams and replacing these?

    Hard decision - good luck.
     
  5. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    Not for your first time...

    Budget two weeks lift time and hope there's no jam.

    You'll want to beautify and that takes time, too. Good luck, post pics!
     
  6. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 3, 2003
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    I allow a full 5 day week for each 355 major, I do them singlehandly, I do have most parts in stock, a good selection of hardware and chemicals, all the tools plus experience of having done 20 or so in the past couple of years. Even then they may be in the shop longer.

    Strange shop, first time, those little extras that most shops include for free showing up, needing additional parts/hardware, interuptions from the GM guys, you'll need all that time plus.....
     
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  8. UConn Husky

    UConn Husky F1 Rookie

    Nov 11, 2006
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    I'd say your estimate is very optimistic for a first time DIY major. Once you get in there you'll find (maybe) other small things you'll want to fix or replace...which will mean more waiting for parts, asking questions here what best options are, etc. Are the headers good? motor mounts? water pump? alternator?

    My major took the whole winter and then some...'course I wasn't in a rush to get out of a bay either. Good luck!
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,157
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    For a good experienced Ferrari mechanic doing a thorough job having all tools, special tools and equipment at his disposal and all the parts required is about a 40 hour job.

    If someone does it in much less I start looking for things that got skipped.
     
  10. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,043
    Tempe, Az
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    Rick Schumm
    I just completed a major service and update on my 348 (update of the oil pump chain drive system, and exhaust). I ended up doing a lot of other things too... some restoration, repack halfshafts, etc. I learned a lot during this process, including how to properly adjust valves, set belt timing and tension, and other things.

    I plan to own the car when the next major service is due, and even if I was lucky enough to find no surprises that required ordering non-routine parts, I'd still plan to allow 4-6 weeks to do the job. I'd allow several days JUST to remove and reinstall the subframe and hook everything up. I'd also allow a couple days to adjust valves, reinstall cams, and set cam timing, even though I've already done it. You really need to plan that you'll find some surprises, and that some things will not go as well as you'd like. Don't sell yourself short on the time it may take!
     
  11. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2005
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    I am currently doing my 30 k service in (another post) and using my personal 4 post hoist & it really only took around 3 hours to remove the motor with another 4 hours doing the prep work (removing fluids, dis'c electrical, hoses, ect)....so in 1 day you will easily have the motor out depending on your skill level.
    Now to check the cam timing w/replacement belts, tensioners, water pump, ect....it all depends on what your car needs....will take a couple of hours.
    As well I decided to remove both my rads and pressure test the (not necessary in most cases but I thought I saw a leak/turned out I was wrong....was a improperly routed overflow tube) .....this took a while because I decided to mod the lft rad brackets to facilitate future removal of the rad without having to disconnect the a/c system....easily another 5 hours.
    Next you will want to change all the hoses, check or replace vacuum lines (they crack) ,ect.....maybe another couple of hours.......so a week should be more than enough time but make sure you pre order all the main parts (ie..belts, tensioners, tensioner pulleys, silicone hoses, plugs, gas filters, ect) and in my case I am delayed an additional week because I also decided to replace a 14 year old waterpump.....not because it was worn out or making noises....but as a preventative gester (not mandatory)........
    Then I decided to repaint the cam covers wrinkle red....factor a couple of day delay while it cures....again not necessary though.
    So yes a week is more than enough time but depending on how far you wish to take it a wk may or may not be enough. If you intend to only change the t belts and fluids and re install.....this can be done in 2 days max.
     
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  13. action jackson

    Dec 11, 2008
    10
    Thanks everybody for their input. It is nice to see everyone willing to help so much. I see some of you have mentioned taking time to clean the engine bay and whatnot. I will not be cleaning the engine bay.

    Let me explain what happened with my situation. I screwed up, kind of. The car is a rebuild, it is in its final stages of being put back together. The engine was out as the rest of the car was being worked on. The motor has now been put back in, I should have serviced the motor while it was out. But I was not aware of the “engine out” service required at that time. Anyway, the motor is clean and the engine bay has been repainted, as well as the rest of the car. The car has been off the road for over 5 years. So now I am about to get it back, and this is where I currently stand. I want to drive the car, but as I have been reading on this forum, I should not do that until the service has been completed.

    Now comes the service, I do want to factor in extra time for misc stuff. As Zero said earlier in the thread, the two most time consuming parts may be the extra cleaning and finding leaks (waiting for parts). I will have avoided the first part, but not necessarily the second.

    Troy_wood:
    I am not sure if I am going to pull the cams and replace the seals that come with the kit. Would this be advisable to do so?

    I am still not sure about the time discrepancy. I see ProCoach says that 40 hours may not be enough, as it would indeed be my first time doing so. However a few others say that it could easily be done in a day, and cf355 says it took 3 hours to remove the motor, after all the prep work of approx 4 hours. I am quite comfortable around cars, otherwise I would not attempt this at all. So yes it would be my first time, but I am not too woried. (maybe I should be?)

    UconnHusky:
    I am not sure if the headers, water pump, or alternator are good. I have not had the motor started, the shop however has. Is there a way for me to verify if they are good?

    So far as it sounds, a race against time is not in my best interest. It may be more difficult, but servicing the car at home may be the better idea. Are there any specialty tools I would require to complete the service? Also I have been doing some extra searching for 30k kits, and I have found another F parts website, that has the kit for a little less money than the first place mentioned, but does include a full set of spark plugs. However, it does not include the S-water hose which the first place includes. Everything else seems to be the same. Which would you suggest, S-water hose, or full set of plugs? I think they both have hill engineering tensioner bearings.
     
  14. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Social Subscribed Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
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    $6-8k paying someone.
     
  15. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    #12 Ricambi America, Mar 2, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
    Here's my very biased opinion:

    We are the only source in North America of the Hill Engineering bearings. They are batch numbered, and hologram sealed. Don't be mistaken. Between Paul Hill and I, we can trace every single legitimate bearing in every single customer car back to the bearing's original build sheets, raw material QC checks, purchase dates into Ricambi, shelf-life, and FedEx tracking numbers inbound/outbound. Anyone else claiming to have them here, sourced directly from Hill Engineering, is not being truthful. I've seen the fake ones, I know who sells them. Let's not go down that path -- they don't belong in a car, let alone a Ferrari at 8500 rpm at full temp.

    We include the S-hose because if it fails, its a ***** to replace. It is a false economy, in my opinion, to skimp on it. To make the pricing more palatable, we also have a full silicone option which provides more hoses at a much nicer 'per hose' net price. Spark plugs are generally BS. Show me a NGK that has fouled in 15k miles, and I'll show you a f'ked up car that needs help anyway. We don't default them into a kit because it is generally a waste of money. If plugs fail, you can change them in your garage while drinking a coffee. Not quite as easy with the "S" hose.
     
  16. action jackson

    Dec 11, 2008
    10
    Thanks for the input, appreciate the biased opinion. I am not going one way or the other, I am just trying to gain knowledge for now. I just happened to come by another place selling the kit so thought I would ask here. I am staying away from ebay stuff completely. It's good to know that if the others are claiming hill engineering it probably isn't true. Is hill engineering better than factory? I think I have read previously that they are? That is also a very good point regarding the S-Hose compared to the plugs. Would it be advisable to go with the silicone option, or is that something to stay away from?
     
  17. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Troy Wood
    I think its great to do your own service - it adds a whole new element to Ferrari ownership. For your first time around however I really don't think you should be rushed. There's so many potentially serious things that could happen (small mistakes that have big consequences) if you're rushing. Not fear mongering here but from one Canuck to another I really think 40 hrs is not enough to be thourough.

    As for the cam seals I did not do mine as they were completely dry. Many will say do them while you are there and others will say if they are not leaking don't touch them. I have a 2-post lift and a custom engine cart specifically designed for my engine so getting the lump out and replacing them will be quite easy now that I have been through it once.

    You know, if doing your own service is important to you, you can get a lift now for about 2k that will work with an 8ft ceiling....
     
  18. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2005
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    #15 cf355, Mar 2, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
    Buy your parts from Ricambi......
    I purchased my tensioners, tensioner pulleys,silicone hose kit (which includes the s hose), ect from them and am most impressed by their professionalism and quick shipping.
    The alternater can be tested if the car can be started with a simple volt meter across the battery terminals....if the car cannot be started then you could take the alternater to your local auto store and have it bench tested. Not a big issue and easily tested.
    The waterpump is a little more difficult if you cannot start the car.......your options are to spin the pump by hand to 'feel' the bearings and replace the 2 main seals or go for a new oe (very expensive), rebuilt oe or aftermarket new pump. You can also rebuild the factory pump with new oe bearings and seal which would eliminate all the guess work and you would have a new pump however the cost of the oe bearings and seals is around $550.00 .....vs the rebuilt oe pumps $299.00 ...vs new aftermarket $549. or b.o.
    The headers? Again, if the car cannot be started you could remove them as the motor is already out, plug the ends and do a water test .....same as pressure testing a rad... I pressure tested my rads, and the fuel filler tube (because some have said they also deteriorate due to the new fuels). Others have said they smoke test the headers in place I believe....but all these tests, if they pass, will only tell you that the headers donot leak today...not next week. The only way to know for sure is to remove the heat shields to examine the manifold tubes for distortions and cracks....but this is a time consuming process and I have not done this. Probably I would suggest you just assume the manifolds are good if they pass the tests described above as the manifolds CAN be changed while the motor is in the car...if it should become necessary.
    The cam seals? You will have to remove the cams to replace the orings however what many a mechanic (ferrari dealer) is doing is lightly coating the cam seals with permatex grey (again VERY LIGHTLY...a little goes a long way) and reuse the cam seals with no leakage. My car was done this way 5 years ago and it has yet to leak at the cam seals. The paper gaskets on the cam covers, however, leak and will need to be replaced.
    In other cars, such as the NSX you never change the cam cover seals because they are o-rings and simply never deteriorate.
     
  19. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2005
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    There is nothing wrong with ebay sellers.
    There are a lot of reputable ferrari sellers on ebay ......you just have to be selective and if your not sure place a thread here and someone will chime in with good/bad experiences.....this site is pretty good that way.
     
  20. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2005
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    The silicone hoses are used on the challenge cars.
    My car had silicone hoses installed 5 years ago and I am replacing the hoses again with silicone hoses from Ricambi.
    They are a great product and reasonably priced.
     
  21. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2005
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    The Hills Engineering bearings are a superior product and many on this site have used them.
    I have OE bearings that are 5 years old and the right bearing is leaching grease.
    I am going with Hills Engineering bearings as they are supposed to be a superior design to the OE.
    Normally you change them every second belt change.
     
  22. UConn Husky

    UConn Husky F1 Rookie

    Nov 11, 2006
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    +1 on the kit from Ricambi. to me price seemed fair and it was one stop shopping. I also did the plugs...for a few extra bucks I thought it was worth it. Also sent the injectors out for clean and calibration just to be sure each cylinder was seeing the right amt of fuel (turns out 2 were partially clogged and running low). Also look at the Kingsborne spark plug wires while you're doing all this work.

    Back to headers - take a look inside each tube with a flashlight (removed from engine), I found the passenger side had two tubes mostly burned through and replaced both sides with Fabspeed, ceramic coated.

    Alternator - tends to cook next to the headers, easy to rebuild yourself following Ernie's excellent thread. I spent $20 in parts and got it dyno tested for voltage and amperage rating after I was done.

    Water pump - pulley should have 'zero' play if you tug on it. If you have no records of replacing it before I would probably have it rebuilt (excellent source in Mississippi I think)

    I also found a leaking radiator once it was torn down, replaced that with OEM (can't be repaired).

    Have fun! I enjoyed every (well, almost every) minute of my engine out work.
     
  23. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    May 29, 2001
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    +1 My car had a number of extra services needed during the major service at Ferrari of Seattle, and it went to about 60+ hours I would imagine, maybe more. This included resealing the transaxle, which had some leaks, resealing the oil/water heat exchanger on top of the engine (also leaking), rebuilding the water pump (precautionary), replacing all the Amp connector boots (rotted and torn), refinishing the valve covers (flaking), rebuild/bush the shifter linkage (rattled), adjust/synch all the throttle bodies, on and on....there were a lot of pages on the service record...and I stopped by several times to inspect and photograph the work...there's a thread here on it. ;)

    I provided Hill Engineering bearings, the Ricambi silicone water hose kit and Kingsborne spark plug wire set, everything else came from FoS.

    I was very happy with the thoroughness and care taken with my car. Runs great.
     
  24. Chris Honeywell

    Chris Honeywell Karting

    Nov 11, 2007
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    Trowbridge UK
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    Chris Honeywell
    hills bearings are LOADS better than original Ferrari
    TBH the standard tensioners are pretty poor tbh compared to the Hills ones
     
  25. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    cf355, three hours to pull the subframe? What did you end up cutting and replacing? ;) Oh, then you say it takes a day... More like it. :)

    Not fear mongering here, either, but after doing dozens of these services and holding a few people's hands who've done it themselves, it's going to take more than 40 hours start to finish. Especially if it's going back together after a long layover. Rock on!
     
  26. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Troy Wood
    #23 troy_wood, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
    DIY'ers also have to factor in an "F-chat advice" time factor when thinking about how long a DIY service will take. You will (and should) have questions that need to be answered before you proceed. If you can't find the answers in the fchat achives you will have to post and wait for the pros to (hopefully) respond. Your skill level might be higher than mine but I spent a good 40hrs alone on fchat digging for info.
     
  27. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Troy Wood
    #24 troy_wood, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'll shut up here soon but I was just recalling how it took me a few days just to decide whether or not to use my existing (old) torque wrenches that have been dropped on the concrete floor a dozen times. Was it possible they needed calibration? I would use them in a second on my VW Eurovan but my new Ferrari? Some would say overkill, for me its eliminating hazardous variables - here's what I ended up buying:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  28. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    #25 ProCoach, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
    Good move. Superb stuff. Clearly you did your homework. :D

    Of course, our $1900 major service OP might think you overpaid... ;)
     

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