355 30k service without engine removal

I though about an idea if it can be done and the cost involve in this project.
Can a 355 be modify like the 360 with two separete fuel tank and opening
behind the seat to reach to the belts for the 30k service?????

 

I think we all ask this one - considering the price of doing an engine out...

I think we have had a number of conversations on doing the 30K without taking the engine out... I also think there is one (that I talked about) making an access panel behind the back seats to be able to get to the cam belts.

At the top left of your screen there is the search function - type in 355 engine out service (or anything like that). Take a look - there is some interesting info on both topics (30K without taking the engine out - and making an access panel...)

Hope that helps,
Rich

 

I have been told by a factory trained mechanic that it can be done. He has done it.

 

I think I would cringe at the sound of someone cutting a hole through the metal.

Also, assume you could for a minute. You would probably want to take some things out (at the very least, gas tank, carpet, etc...) prior to cutting through without doing any damage to another part. Then, you would have to cut & customize a panel, etc... I wonder if the cost to do all of this 'customizing' would be worth it since the service is every 3-5 years and it seems like most people don't keep the cars more than 5 years, so they would likely only have to go through the real service only once. Perhaps one real service would be the same cost as all this customizing.

Plus, I don't know how I would feel about a car that had a custom access panel put in since I am one of those 'original' freaks.

 

"butchering a ferrari because you don't have the money to maintain it properly"
hmmmm
interesting topic

 

The 288GTO has such an access panel.

 

Sounds like that is what it should be to me also

 

I can aford the sevices but I may want to keep the car for a long time and
hate to trash the money because of a not smart desigen by the factoy.
beside the engine can also come out due to other problem that can be developed.
hoever I am giving up the idea because of the point that the car will be out of the original desigen and it would be hard to sell later.
Thank you all for your comment.

 

You are not the first one to think what you thought, most of us have. And you are right it is a "not smart idea" from the factory.
On the subject of the 355 engine, it was not so long ago that certain people on this site were certain that the 355 belts could not be done with the engine in situ in the engine bay, in fact alot of the so called experts got very wound up and insisteds that it could not be done, until Tonyh posted pics of long time and established ferrari specialists VERDI FERRARI doing the said procedure with no problems at all, and with all the room in the world in the engine bay to do the change, so if the belts can be done easly in situ why not the service?? Apart from if the belts need doing there is nothing major about a 30,00 service, change fluids and check the condition of rubbers and other parts ect. What cannot be done with the engine in? Even the tappets are hydrolic and dont need maintanance on this model.

 

Who ever said you dont need to remove the engine for cam belts is smoking crack, yes, it can be done, however it is the half ass way of doing it. There are numerous hoses, water pump, tensioners, electronic sensors, exhaust manifolds, cats, CV joint boots, that should be inspected during a 30K.

This is an expensive car, why would a mechanic risk getting oil on a camshaft belt that would soften the rubber belt to the point of possible failure. After all the engine will probably be turning around 8000 rpm when the belt fails. Then it will bend about 12 of the 20 valves on that side of the engine.

Bottom line is call any Ferrari dealer, ask for the service manager and ask him if they would do a 30K by removing the gas tank, instead of the engine.

 

Glad you bought that up, becourse according to Verdi ferrari the factory book instructs its tecs to do belt changes with the engine in. I spoke to Karl about this sometime last year and the guy does not seem to b*ll Sh*t.Remember Verdi has been going for around 18 years.So ferraris on crack.
What parts that you mentiond above cannot be got at with the engine in situ. There is bags of room at the front of the engine the way that they do it. And were is this oil comming from to get it on the belts? If any oil gets on the belts , well change the belts. Its the same if the engine is out, is it not.
The pics of the 355 bellow having its belts done in situ,show that there is more room than was on my 328 when the belts were changed. What cannot be got at? What cannot be checked?
MB. pics were borrowed from Tonyhs pics.
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In my service manuel it says to remove engine to change the belts.
Here is the proof. If you can show me anyother statement from the factory then post it here.
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I will be at verdis in two weeks i will ask him to show me,if he can i will post pics. But my question stands,what cannot be reached? I dont know you tell me. MB. thats a service manual not the ferrari tecs manual, i have got one of them to.

 

Not the fact that things can't be reached, it's setting the timing correctly. I noticed that the cam covers were not removed, and no degree wheel is installed on the crank pully. I also noticed dial indicators are missing. What is the refferance point is he used to set the cam timing? Is he just using a peice of chock on the cam seal housing and installing the belts, and hoping for the best? Thgese and other questions must be raised. There is a reason to remove the enigne. There are other things you must do besides swap parts.

 

In the set of pics i have, there is one of the timming marks that are at the top 0f the engine that were done at ferrari that are way of. I dont know the story of the car becourse it belongs to Tonyh.
MB.here they are. and from the notes that i have the first pic is the state if the timming before Verdi touched the engine, befor him it was done by a ferrari main dealer. The second and third pics show the factory timming marks on both cast (grove) and on teeth (red) after Verdi did its job. Question what dial gauge did the ferrari main dealer use to get its timming so far out? Or indeed if THEY removed the rocker covers them selfs.
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These marks on the cam seal housing are quick referance marks only. Sort of the same this as on the 328 rear timing sheilds. They are to be used for quick referance, for the mechanic to check if the timing has jumped during diagnosis. These marks are not accurate. 1 reason being is the fact that the housing that has the mark stamped on it also holds the cam seal and cam seal o-ring. Durining install of the cam cover, there is slight deflection of the seal housing during tightening. The hounings in otherwords do not sit perfectly flat against the cam covers, and because of the design with the 2 mounting nuts on the bottom of the housing, you also have movement in the stud holes aswell.
As far as the pictures showing the timing being that far off, iw ould have been inclinded to do some further checks of the engine after installing the timing belts.

Another far more important reason. The pullies themselves can be removed and rotated without moving the cams. Each pully has a center nut and a series of holes and a driving dowel. What this means is that the mark they are using on the pulley could infact be anywere. If sombody had done some engine work in the past and removed these pullies, lined up the timing marks and then put the pullies on, rotating just the pulley to find a hole to line the dowel pin up to, that mark could be 180degrees off!! And I don't have to tell you what will happen.

The way they are doing these services is in my eyes very risky. They are taking for granted that the marks on the pullies are still in the same place as when they left they factory. This is scary and somthing I would be questioning.

 

Verdi know what they are doing there expereance is vast and they ARE ferrari trained. The pics i have posted are only a small sample of the one i have of the procedure, so realy you cant second guess what they did or did not do with out seeing the full procedure for your self. I know you are a mechanic mate, ferrari trained or maybe not, you do it your way and these ferrari specialist do it there way successfully.
Going back to the question of if it was possable to do a 30,000 in situ, yes it can clearly.
There are lots of UK ferrari owner who have had Verdis change there belts and there are some on here, even reading this. Woulnt it be great if they chimed in and voiced there expereance with Verdis instead of leaving it to myself to wave the flag, shame on you guys, LOL!

 

The fuel tank is in the way of any access panel.

The NA car is different in many ways to the European car in the fuel tank area. I have removed the tank with changing belts in mind. Many of the reasons I did not continue to do the job were already brought up by Tom. I am sorry but I would have to call anyone who does that to a North American version a butcher. The European version may be a different enough car that it is a very different situation, I don't know. I will say I don't know what book is being referred to but it has never been FNA policy to do belts in the car. On warranty claims that required access to the front of the motor they always paid for R+R and as "THRIFTY" as they are they considered it a requirement or they would not have paid it. I would say that anyone that is performing it in the car in this country should be avoided.

 

Well, if that gas tank is in the way I wouldn't cut mine either. My point is if this could be done (and I am not saying it can - I own a 308, I only repeated what I was told) I would be making myself a custom access panel in a hurry. THAT concept, I will argue, is not a big deal at all on these cars. So what? It's not like you are leaving a big hole there. It is simply another door, lid, engine access cover, whatever. It's metal and located below carpet, etc. where it cannot be seen. As far as the value I do not believe it would affect a driver's car. First there are ton's for these cars out there. They will never, ever, be the million dollar car that many others have become- just look at the 308. There will always be someone out there that willl pay for a good example. Especially one that could save them thousands in labor costs. That is, IF it were possible to reach through there and work on something.

 

Agreed

 

Tom, this is a good picture stolen from one of the other threads showing the setting of the cam timing.
What I can't see in the other pictures posted here is how he gets to the crank pulley bolt because that pulley has to be taken loose to get the cam belts on and off the drive pulleys and the crank pulley is right against the frame. It's not rocket science to take these subframes out and does make for easier access for any servicing and additional repairs. If you want to cut panels, then you have to contend with the ECU's that are mounted there and that only gets you to the fuel tanks. If it's a spyder, then you have the top hydraulic controls. And don't forget that this is a unibody. Any panels that you may cut out can affect the rigidity of the body. You think that getting the gas tank out is that easy? It may sound easy but when you break a couple of those aged plastic vapor connectors you may see one reason why some of us opt to remove the subframe. I realize that everyone has their on opinions on this and I respect that. Just my 2 cents worth.
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I agree with all the "don't trash your Ferrari" posts on this topic. I'd also point out that it might cause a structural rigidity problem. If the 288GTO and the 360 Modena have these access panels, they have been integrated into the design and the stresses to the chassis have been accounted for. The F355 likely has not.

Also, I am a high-end stereo enthusiast and read many articles on car stereo installations. One particular article that I read involved a Merc with a custom access panel in the country of Germany. The guy had his car impounded becuase he cut out a portion of the rear deck and it is illegal in Germany to alter the structure of the car. I assume this is for safety reasons (crash and impact, etc...)

It's just not worth it.

 

Sorry Chaa - I don't often read this section so sometimes miss posts. Consider this me chiming in

The photos you posted are actually of my car, not Tony's. I took them and was (obviously) present throughout the duration of the change.

Not only was there enough room to change the belts and inspect everything you'd need to (relevant seals for leaks, tensioners, bearings etc etc), there was room enough for a big mechanic to do the work, and an even bigger me to watch and photograph it. We were practically holding a party in there.

Whether it's worth it timewise, who knows. But I would challenge anyone to do it more quickly and effectively taking the engine out.

Two more things.

1) Taking the engine out involves pulling wiring around/disconnecting it (and numerous other items). If this is not done carefully by whoever does the work, it can cause problems later. From experience with my car and Ferrari approved main dealers, you are quite probably at greater risk doing it the engine out way (all other things being equal, which in life they rarely are!).

2) Timing. Whether the timing is now 100% accurate on my car, I know not (and no one has ever claimed that it can be considered thus without the use of dials, taking the top off the engine etc etc).

But what I can swear on is that the car both sounds and runs shed loads better after this monumental gaff (again, must have been a main dealer's error as they were - stress were - the only people ever to touch my car prior to this) was put right.


Needless to say I won't be entrusting my car to the approved network again, and have nothing but good things to say about Verdis. You can tell a lot by talking to people, watching them work and listening to them. And I would defy anyone to spend some time with Verdis and not get that impression (even if Karl has strange ideas about the classics ).

Back on topic - I wouldn't go hacking around to make access hatches either. The job would be far from simple, would knacker the value of the car and would not make the job any simpler IMO.

But you do NOT have to take the engine out to do this service.

Am happy to be PM'd if anyone wants any further info on any of the above. And have no commercial link to Verdis other than paying them (as everyone else who uses them does) to look after my pride and joy.

 

Engine out is only way to do the belts properly, period.Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves, the whole tank-out method is a huge compromise,and I have done it once out of curiosity!