355 30k service without engine removal

Yea of course you did mate.

 

Funny Sh$# Joe. I like it!! LOL
Mike

 

Filling out your profile a tad might help us gauge where you're coming from.

My cars are keepers. I drive them. A lot, hard, in all weathers (owned the car since December '02, done about 17k miles in it BUT have been abroad for about a total of 10mths of the time I've owned the car). And I don't mess about on keeping them in good order.

Having seen this done (and asked bucket loads of questions before, during and after the process) I see zero compromise.

Having experienced a serious issue which was, in all likelihood, caused by an approved service agent removing the engine and not being careful enough at the job (though it was easy to see how the slip up may have gone unnoticed), I'm not convinced that the engine out route is the be all and end all.

I'm further not convinced that spending more on a service necessarily means you're looking after your car better.

Let's face it, if you see an engine coming out of a car (no matter how "simple" that procedure may in reality be) it looks to the layman like a shed load of work is involved, thus "justifying" a major wallet thinning.

There's a lot of mystique around these cars (and that's ultimately all they are, albeit very, very nice ones ). I've known more than a few people be nervous about buying one through all this talk of engine out services and getting buggered on service costs.

It's complete b*ll*cks - they are not cheap to maintain (especially when Ferrari hike the prices of their parts for no apparent reason - tensioner bearings anyone). But then no performance car is to maintain well, so why not have a Ferrari.

Having said all that, I don't think I'm an unreasonable bloke. So, if someone has photos of an engine out service start to finish, and can highlight on the photos the areas that cannot be adequately dealt with engine in, then I'll consider eating my words. Honestly.

PS And I don't mean cleaning the engine all over with a toothbrush. On UK roads it'd get covered in ****e again after 5 miles.

PPS Please also note that I am in no way suggesting taking the engine out is "wrong" per se. My main statement here is that the belt change and associated safety checks *can* be done engine in situ, and that in my head I think it may well be the "preferable" route all things considered.

 

I wonder,

If someone does complete a belt change with the engine in, and the car runs fine afterward and continues to do so until the next scheduled belt change, does that mean it can be done after all?

I guess the real test is another 30K miles.

Has anyone swapped them with the engine in and seen it go for another 30K+ with no problems? I don't mean a couple thousand miles and a year ago. I mean a solid 30,000 miles and/or 3-5 years? How about several cars?

I am not trying to start an arguement here. I am only curious.

 

nobody said it could not be done in the car. What we are saying that that corners are being cut in the name of saving a couple hundred bucks. Obviously the job is not being done aswell as it could be and the maxium performance of the car is being compromised by not follwing correct proceedures. Taking for granted that the pullies on the cams are in the same postion as they left the factory is a big fault. I'm also quite sure they will not admit to any fault if in the past they have made mistakes by doing things this way.

 

the cam belt on my ex-348 Spider was changed without removing the engine by Shelton Ferrari.

 

I think you may be going at this the wrong way. Why not find ways to make the removal of the rear cradle assembly easier?

Suggestions being making all the connections that have to be removed a quick disconnect type. and building a rig to drop the chassis onto.

I don`t really recommend messing with it at all, but if you insist, I feel that would be the better way to go.

just my 2cents

best regards, Jim

 

There is no shortcut that cannot be taken if you are willing to take chances and make sacrifices. If I recall correctly NASA learned that with Challenger.

Some make sense, some don't. I'm with Dr Ferrari. To do the job properly that thing needs to come out. Find a way to do that easier.

 

How about developing a belt that doesn't deteriorate or at least at a rate so slow that that that car would fall apart around it first. How much would that thing be worth? That would change a lot of things.

 

How about going back to chains instead of rubber belts? Maybe this will be the future since the F430 is going this route.

 

Don't chains stretch? I believe I heard somewhere that was a disadvantage. I realize rubber stretches too but the metal chains are not "elastic"

 

I didn't know the 430 used chains. Anybody know why Ferrari did that? Why not on the 360?

 

I'm sorry, but WE are most definitely NOT saying this.

In my last post I asked for photos showing which pieces could not be done properly with the engine left in situ.

And the cost saving is not a "couple of hundred bucks" in the UK. It can amount to hundreds of pounds of, I would suggest, unnecessary spend (depending on who's prices you compare - the difference could be greater still).

Some agents seem to think that owning a Ferrari means you don't give a toss about a few hundred quid (500 hundred bucks+).

Personally, I do care - there are many other worthwhile causes I'd sooner give that money too than a Ferrari dealer!

As I noted previously, I am *prepared* to pay the money to keep my car running well. I went in with my eyes open, and even believed the "the engine HAS to come out line". But this does not mean spending 1000 "units" when 500 "units" will give at least the same in return.

Verdis spotted a number of things on my car that were awry, and note as I said that this car had only ever been in the approved network (UK). They've all been sorted, and I trust the guys who did the sorting owing to the way they treated the car.

You state this as fact but have no empirical evidence to back it up.

There is *nothing* to show that "engine out" means the job will be done better, as you imply. Indeed, the "anecdotal" (though not to me) evidence would indicate the exact opposite.

Show the photos as I noted, and let's have a rational (I stress this word) discussion about it. Rather than perpetuating "myth".

As I understand it, it's rarely the belt that's the actual problem.

The tensioner bearings are more often the cause of problems. If they fail, the belt jams etc and your wallet goes on a diet.

As for your comment on mileage, these cars have rarely seen 30k miles, let alone multiple times! The agent mentioned has been doing these changes this way for some time now, and we would definitely have heard about it through some means (if not from the agent, but from unhappy people - and if the agent had been stung once keeping this sort of thing quiet, they wouldn;t persist in doing it this way ).

I'll let you know how my car goes.

One last idea - if the professional service people on this thread would care to share how much they charge for a belts service (not to mention make it clear that they are indeed service agents - I am not, I am just a customer), and how many hours that takes, I'll dig out my invoice and let you know the comparison figures. I would suggest also that the cost of parts be highlighted out of the figure, as I have a suspicion these may vary between countries.

 

The 430 has chains. Modern chains are better and Ferrari has been taking flak about high service costs for too long. All the other car companies are advertising how long between service and how little the service costs, and with belts all Ferrari can do is hide from the issue.

 

Murph what has not been mentioned is that there are others on this site that have had there belts done by Verdi with out problems.
And trying to get photo evidence of a procedure is like getting blood from a stone on here, there is alot of people with opinions based on nothing more than well..opinions on what they have heard and not facts.
We in the UK know how established Verdi Ferrari is, which spans back 18ish years does it not. It would be interesting to know how established some negative experts are that said only last year that it could not be done. I remember some people would have put any thing on the table as a bet that it could not be done, then the pics were taken and posted then the doubters changed there argument.

 

Look..I'm not trying to start an argument here with this at all. What I am trying to stress is the fact that there is a correct way to do things and there are ways that will "just get the job done".

One other thing..it's not hard to drop the enigne out of a 355 at all,. In fact it is quite simple really. A bit on the time consuming side but not difficult. Why would Ferrari design the car around making it easy to remove the engine if it does not need to come out for service? Why not make the frame a soild part of the car and have the enigne come out the top? But I guess everybody knows more then the people who designed the car..so I can't argue with all the car engineers in this thread.

 

Has anyone noticed how opinionated we all seem to be? Maybe its a condition that people need to own a car like this. Sure couldnt ever say any of us will take any BS off someone.

Personally, if someone can find a way of cheating around the labor and can verify they cover all the bases, long as it all gets done correctly who could argue? And as long as the car has no issues and all is back together correctly its all good, no? Just because a car was engineered to be serviced one way, has never stopped someone from finding another way. One look at our space program should remind someone of that.

There have been a few threads around about valve timing and belt replacement, and its also been argued both ways until probably most people still arent absolutely sure which was is correct. But as I have read my own manual, and others have pointed out in later cars, they do want them timed with a degree wheel. That being said, if one was absolutely sure of their marks from a previous degree wheeled set up, its doubtful anyone could tell any change in the state of tune if new belts were installed and the marks are "right on". But probably if we were doing ourselves, and labor costs wernt a great issue, we would pull the motor and go through and re-detail the engine and engine compartment while we had the room. Thats the one job you couldnt do with it in there.

Many years ago I was taking apart a 63 Jag XKE. As I removed the rear carpet behind the seats I found sheet metal panels screwed down with sheet metal screws. Taking the covers off I found someone had used a cutting torch and cut holes in the body to reach the rear brake calipers. At the time it was like an $800 job to R&R the rear axle and put in brake pads. Guy I was working with said it was quite common. But the car had been in storage and not ran since 1966, so it was probably the dealership who done it. Just a heads up on how crude mechanics can be when they start cutting corners. Not saying that its crude in this situation, or that its wrong in anyway. Like I said, if they can verify they got to everything and done all the work, more power to them. I a$$ume an engine out $ervice at the dealer doe$nt include detailing either, unle$$ you reque$t it.

 

You're stressing something without explaining to us exactly why there is only one way to do this job effectively. I'm not arguing with you, I am simply disagreeing.

I'm also not overly keen on people saying I'm saying one thing, when in actual fact I'm saying the exact opposite - in anything I do I hate this, and will be vocal about it in order to (attempt to) clear any confusion

There is often more than one way to do a job, and all those ways will ultimately have identical results. Some people prefer one way, others prefer others. No problem.

But to categorically and emphatically state that for something to be done properly it can only be done one way, when there is evidence to prove that this is not the case, is misleading.

The Ferrari community, and those prospective owners being made nervous about taking the plunge because of these scare stories, need hard facts not hearsay.

If you have time, please mark up some photos to show what cannot be done with the engine in. You seem like a very experienced guy in this field. You could even use the photo earlier in this thread of the car having its valve timing done (which is a separate topic BTW which I'm happy to start another thread on) as a start.

And if you could, add into the mix what you charge to do this engine out job, noting how long it usually takes etc etc.

I'm sure if we sat and thought about it for 5mins we could all come up with a hundred design "features" of these cars that are rubbish and should be done differently. Can I start? Do you really think putting the battery in the front wheel arch is the best idea? And what about exhaust manifolds that break under a bit of heat and not much time (the same company we're talking about remember)?

Look at it an alternative way. If this was such a hot **** idea, and the best way to design the car, why did they change it for the 360 series and later cars?

You say that the job is not difficult, but that it's time consuming. And thiis is the key point in terms of cost of ownerhip when you do not have time to do the work yourself.

You're probably right

But this forum constitutes a small percentage of owners and prospective owners. And there are a lot of people who do actually believe everything they are told about these cars (I used to!). And the approved network and factory has everything to gain financially by allowing these ideas to perpetuate and permeate through the world of Ferrari.

Cynical? You bet. But it's reality.

I dreamed of owning one of these cars. Was scared about running costs but eventually got myself to the poisiton where I could stomach the costs. Then I found these sites, and decent indpendent agents and realised that, whilst these things are by no means cheap to run (as I've stated, no performance car is), they do not have to be as heinously expensive as you initially think, especially if you're prepared to have the wool removed from your eyes.

When I bought the 355 I nearly bought a classic, but heard that they were even more hideously expensive to run.

I've since talked to owners and independent professionals and it would seem there was a lot of mythology there too. So hopefully I'll be adding one now, using the sensible, down to earth advice I've received here and elsewhere. I'm going in with my eyes open, and there's still some scope for tears, but I accept that (risk in life is what makes it fun, in the right places). I also accept that there's a good chance it will never be as expensive as some would have me believe. Watch this space

Photos and bill of rates needed I think to take this debate (not argument ) forwards.

 

This still won't help the tensioner bearing. What does Ferrari recommend for them in the F430? Anybody know?

 

What tensioner bearing? It has chains.

 

I just assumed there was one down there to keep tension it them too. I guess Ferrari solved the belt change problem for good. I wonder how this will affect the value of the 430 years down the road.

 

First of all you how are you going to take the crank shaft pulley off? Maybe you can change the belts without removing it.

As far as getting oil on the belts? You must not be a mechanic, anytime a project in a confined ares is done there is always residue oil that can get on the new parts.

I say go for it. Ferrari does NOT do it this way, obiviously Verdi knows more than Ferrari. After all there is no danger of being a tooth off on the cams. You can see them just fine with a mirror. right?

Make sure to tell the next owner that the belts were changed in the car its a real good selling point.

Good luck.

 

It's possible without removing the engine. I witnessed it, but was asked not to photograph the process (though one of the photos shows said bolt in the mechanics hand - the full series of pictures is here: http://homepage.mac.com/ajm7/Belts/index.htm, my comments when you click on the images). There's no black magic, just good lateral thinking. If you drop in on Verdi's, and they're doing a change, they'll let you watch if you ask nicely I'm sure.

I was stood in the void while the work was being done. No oil. Not a drop. Perhaps because the area isn't really *that* confined. Perhaps also because the guys who did it were diligent in doing the process?

Who knows. Some people like to get dirty I guess (proper mechanics uniform?)

You have this completely arse about face. The car was running a tooth out on the timing AFTER BEING IN THE CARE (SOLELY) OF the approved Ferrari network. It had feck all to do with this belt change, and was more likely the result of the first belt change the car had done by an APPROVED DEALER.


I said it earlier, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. If you wish to continue paying higher service premiums for no tangible gain (that I can see), no one has a problem with that obviously.

But some of the comments here continue to be made without being backed up with simple to provide (I would say - must surely be easier to take photos of a service with the engine out? Especially using the SLR camera I used!) evidence of what the issue is with not taking the engine out.

 

You know what, this really scares me. I have taken these engines in and out many times probably more than most people and I know for sure what can and cannot (or maybe should not) be done. This guy who did the service will not say how he removed the crank pulley and did not want pictures taken of it for that site you mentioned. The ONLY way that bolt is coming out is by drilling a hole through the subframe to access the bolt or by unbolting the engine from the mounts and shifting the whole assembly backward not to mention the fuel tank still has to come out. I do not see how either operation is proper or faster.

All I can say is you get what you pay for. Find and good service facility with a technician with good references and get the job done correctly. Also, make sure when you compare prices you also compare what is being done for the price. Not all 30K services are equal. GET A LIST OF ITEMS SERVICED.

If you wish to do it yourself, Find someone with experience to help guide you and take your time. I know removing the subframe may be a pain for some but it really is the only proper way to do the service without comprimise.

good luck and best regards, Jim

 

I admit that I have not yet had the pleasure of doing a 30K or belt change yet. i do have a couple of cars coming due, if they elect for me to do the job, the service book will be my guide along with input from the trained pros that post here. I have no interest in half-a$$ing a job, nor reinventing the wheel.
my read on this, how does the crank bolt get retorqued without any "special' tool? This way the only way that the timing can be set is by the factory marks, so presumably that is how they determined they were off and set them by those marks? we have heard detailed comment from Brian, Dave and other ex-dealer techs about timing issues.

just my $0.02

Brian