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355/360 exhaust manifolds stats

Discussion in '348/355' started by ze_shark, May 8, 2004.

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Exhaust manifolds maintenance history

  1. My 355 never had exhaust manifold replaced

  2. My 355 had an exhaust manifold replaced once

  3. My 355 had exhaust manifolds replaced twice or more

  4. My 360 never had exhaust manifolds replaced

  5. My 360 had exhaust manifolds replaced once or more

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    Interesting episode in my manifold saga, my car is at the dealer for the replacement of the manifolds and it turned out that ... it's just the CO plugs which were cracked.
    The chief mechanic told me that cracked manifolds result in very high CO readings (>500ppm) because the harmonics between the cylinders are completely messed up. On my car, the readings were perfectly ok. It's only after further inspection that they found that the plugs/bolts were cracked.

    So no manifolds (this time), let's touch wood ...

    I also got an explanation for the odd cringing noise I get for a few secs when the car is idle in neutral and cold, if the revs get lower than 1000rpm, the gears tend to sing a bit, supposed to be normal ...
     
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  3. fazzaz1

    fazzaz1 Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    89
    Mississippi
    Full Name:
    Sam Scott
    I have the third driver side and fourth passenger side manifold on my 98 355. It is ridiculous and something should be done.
     
  4. RF128706

    RF128706 Formula Junior

    Apr 8, 2004
    280
    I've been giving this subject a great deal of thought and have read around the subject. The idea is to understand the root cause of the problem to demonstrate to Ferrari that we’ve worked out why the manifolds are not fit for purpose to maybe improve the chances of "goodwill" manifold exchanges for us.

    Anyway, I'm starting to narrow down on a couple of potential root causes but I need more data to support the theories.

    Ze: you seem to have the largest number of manifold cracks on a single car. Would you mind answering these questions ?

    Each time the manifold failed:
    - Was the manifold OK when you switched off the engine, or did you notice the noise develop as you were going along ?
    - What was the ambient temperature ?
    - Was the bypass valve working properly ?
    - What grade of petrol were you using ? (I know you can get 91, 95 & 98 RON in CH)
    - What type of journey did you do e.g. low speed/high speed/stop-start etc. ?
    - Did any warning lamps light on the instrument panel ?

    About your car:
    - Is it an F1 shift ?
    - Do you run a standard exhaust system ?

    Also, what sort of altitude do you run your car at ?

    I hope you don't mind answering these questions. I don't want to say what my thoughts are just yet.

    If anybody else wants to answer these questions for your failures, please do so. The more data I get the better.

    Thanks,

    Rob.
     
  5. mondial86

    mondial86 Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    298
    MA
    Full Name:
    David Holmes
    I would like to say that when this thread was started my manifolds were ok and I voted as such ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but that was then and this now ,,,right side cracked smog tube and burn hole in pipe .I think these problems have to do with how hard the cars are used ,it is first and formost a desigen problem ,,but if you ***** foot the cars around I think that the problem is less of a problem ,,,just my 2 cents
    DAVID
     
  6. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    Fortunately not. I had two qualified failures, and what I diagnosed to be another two were just the CO plug caps. Some members here had 6 or 7 ...

    You seem to imply that the failure is a sudden catastrophic process, it's not. The cracks develop gradually. You will notice them sooner or later depending on how much you pay attention to your exhaust note when cold and when warm. Since we have seasons here, I can't comment on ambient temp. The cracks could have originated to winter driving by cold temps.
    Using RON95 petrol, as spec'd.
    Bypass valve is stuck open on my car (discovered that, not my intent).
    Journey question does not apply since diagnosing when the header failed is impossible. I do all types of journeys, from quick commutes to long drives. No warning lights of any kind. F1 box, std muffler.

    Again, my belief is that associating these failures to a certain event/set of conditions misses the point. This is a degenerative process, which you may notice sooner or later depending on how sensitive you've become to the symptoms.
     
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  8. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    ... and my car has seen all sorts of altitudes, from sea level to 9000ft.
     
  9. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 29, 2001
    17,248
    USA
    Full Name:
    Hugh G. Rection
    You should get an award for your perserverance through all those headers! :(
     
  10. AHG

    AHG Karting

    Jul 10, 2004
    234
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    When my 355 was about 4 years old with about 40,000K, the RHS exhaust manifold cracked.
    The dealer (in Australia) quoted about A$15,000 to replace with factory parts.
    I decided to repair it for about A$2,000.
    This did not last long...and when I took it back to the dealer he told me the LHS was also gone!!!
    I was at this stage tempted to go TUBI for about A$9,000.
    I decided to repair them both once more, this time by top quality racing car exhaust experts for about A$3,000.
    So far the results have been good.
    The dealer told me the repaired exhausts are now better than the originals.
    The dealer also said this was common in 355's especially the RHS.
    They said it was heat related, that the pipes are thin and very close to each other and when they get hot they expand, touch each other, fuse together and then crack as they cool down again.
    Hope this is helpful.
    Would appreciate any comments.
    AHG

    P.S. Bought my 355 F1 new in 1999 and track it 4 times a year and have now covered 45,000K. No other problems apart from new rotors (twice),pads and tyres.
     
  11. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,505
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    I think alot of the problem is how the header bends. You have the 2 center cylinder tubes. If you look at how the are bent and formed, you will notice the the exahust path would be directed towards the outside wall of the tube, and then around the bend and out. I beleive this to become a hotspot on the tube. With the hot exhaut gases constanly hitting against this same spot you will have an extreme hotspot and it will eventual burn through if the metal is not adiquite. If you notice it seems to be always the 2 center tubes that burn through. This appears to be a moajor design flaw in the header itself.
     
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  13. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    88,367
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Here's a comment..first post AG? well done and about time :)
     
  14. DIGMAN52

    DIGMAN52 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 30, 2004
    3,561
    Dallas Texas
    Full Name:
    Philip C
    Norwood in Dallas has both my headers in England right now getting redone in better than new materials. It saves a substantial sum of money, and should be less prone to breaking again. Ask Mike about the details of what they do. Only downside is being without the car for a month, but August in Texas isn't the greatest cruising month anyway.
     
  15. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,330
    SF, Bay Area
    I have a 2000 360Modena and since I participated in the poll my manifolds and cats have been destroyed due to excessive heat in the chamber. I saw a few 360 voting they have replaced their manifolds as well and I was wondering if they could chime in and explain what was the cause. Root cause is still unknown in my case. And non of the OBDII warnings came on and no warning signs to slow down the car. When SDII was hooked up the only faults were Knock 1 & 2 reading high...Any inputs from other 360 owners where they have replaced their manifolds???
     
  16. Aeroengineman

    Aeroengineman Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 5, 2003
    897
    Maple Valley, WA
    Full Name:
    Dave Tegeler
    I believe I'm experencing a manifold cracking problem on the RHS. It gradually developed while on a 3 hour continous drive about 2 hours into the run. I changed the exhaust clamps at the cat-to-tubi interface which were broken but that didn't stop the noise. I'm asking FNA through Ron Tonkin for warranty support since they recently did the 30K. I'm waiting to see their position. I understand there is heat problem with the Tubi-manifold that was so serious it shouldn't be considered eventhough reports say the Tubi does not exhibit the cracking problem. Is FNA providing goodwill support to cars of my age and mileage? Are they obligated to under the 8 year provisions?

    What is the recommended approach to this problem? Is the QV repair long lasting?

    Has anybody successfully operated the Tubi Manifold for 20K mi without heat problems?
     
  17. PCH

    PCH F1 Rookie

    Apr 7, 2004
    2,977
    Your kidding, right?? I don't understand why it would take 100 miles of driving to get your car to full operating temp,( my 360 takes approx. 4 mi). How many Ferrari owners or for that manner any car drive 100 miles everytime they start their car? Where did you get this information?
     
  18. lawwdog

    lawwdog Formula 3

    Dec 4, 2002
    1,178
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Mario
    Good luck with FNA. I had the 30K done on my car and at that time, Ferrari of SF noticed one cracked header. My car is the poster child for services being on time etc.. The FNA rep (from NJ nonetheless) was very professional but forward. "The headers will not be covered under an emmision warranty claim. Also, we have not found a design flaw with them that is subtantial enough to warrant a recall nor replace them under good will. However, new headers are updated with a new design at the smog tube to ensure that this portion of the header should withstand high heat temps and a propencity to crack."

    With this I sent my headers to Mike at QV London...... they are on the car now.

    Mario
     
  19. fazzaz1

    fazzaz1 Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    89
    Mississippi
    Full Name:
    Sam Scott
    My 98 has had many manifolds replaced. I had to threaten to get the last one from FNA. I think they will back down with proper service records. Labor for replacement is not cheap. I feel sure this one will crack(burn through) like the others and next time I will also go to a specialist because I think the junk Ferrari puts on for 355 manifolds will continue to fail and FNA will continue to take a hard line. Good luck and let me know if I can help.
     
  20. Aeroengineman

    Aeroengineman Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 5, 2003
    897
    Maple Valley, WA
    Full Name:
    Dave Tegeler
    My F355 developed a crack while on a road trip with the local club 2 hours of continous operation into the drive. I tried to have FNA provide support for replacement through Tonkin Ferrari (they did 30K recently) with no luck. What a bad policy when the part clearly was not designed for fitness of purpose. I certainly should be able to buy at Ferrari's cost a better designed replacement part (not one with a patch on it) when they've known about this for over 5 years.

    My options appear to be:
    1. Buy a replacement from Ferrari (Will not happen under any circumstances)
    2. Buy a remanufactured from QV in england $2000USD with hyperflow cats $2300USD.
    3. Buy a Tubi $5000USD with Hyperflow Cats $2300USD.
    4. Buy a Capristo Manifold $????.?? if available with Hyperflo or Equivalent Cats $????.??.

    Thanks to the postings on here I think I will do the replacement myself as I have a lift in my garage and nothing to do all winter. I hope it doesn't take that long to get to all the manifold bolts!.

    I 'd be interested to hear your opinions as to which path I should take.
     
  21. fiorano10

    fiorano10 Karting

    Sep 29, 2004
    76
    los angeles
    can anyone know due to extreme heat generate form the manifold & cats
    eventualy in time can damege engine blocks,valves and etc?
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,087
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall

    I have for a long time suspected a linkage between manifold failure and subsequent valve failure on the 355's.
    I should elaborate a little. It seems that on a large percentage of the 355's I have seen with burned valves were also cars that had either a large incidence of manifold failures or were operated with a bad manifold for many miles. Usually on the same cylinders.
     
  23. fiorano10

    fiorano10 Karting

    Sep 29, 2004
    76
    los angeles
    beside the valve can anythin else go bad?
    two years ago I changed the alternator in 97 SPIDER and I suspect it
    was dameged due to the heat from the manifold close to it.
     
  24. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,505
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    HANG ON FOLKS!! I"M COMMING TO THE RESCUE FOR US ALL!!! I just need a bit more time..then I will become a sponsor of the site and everyone will be happy!!! Hopefully next week I will know more.
     
  25. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,629
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms
    Brian,
    The later is the one that gets my vote. I just got another one in with repaired and leaking manifolds. This makes 7 cars this year. The repairs done on this last set are terrible. The pile of burned through headers at the shop is now too big, is anyone looking for cores?
    Dave
     
  26. Aeroengineman

    Aeroengineman Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 5, 2003
    897
    Maple Valley, WA
    Full Name:
    Dave Tegeler
    I am curious as to how many - miles cars were operated with bad manifolds. I was on a road trip far into the wilderness here in the NW - must have driven 200 miles to get gack. Have not had a valve failure. Am I at severe risK?
     
  27. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,087
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I am with Dave on that as well. To answer your question, I don't know, there are too many variables. How good/ bad is the condition of the valve to start with, how bad was the manifold leaking, how hard was the car being driven? In your case time will tell, but at this point if you are equipped to do so you may want to do a leak down test. The cars I have seen the problems in were owned by people that were either ignoring the problem hoping that it would go away, were in fear of what it would cost to repair and waited until it got so bad they couldn't ignore it any more or were so out of touch with their car it had to get really bad to even notice. As most of you know many of the owners of these cars are not very in touch with them and many are not aware how quickly things can snowball so they wait until either the problem is very bad or their finances can support a trip to the shop. The second reason I can understand, everybody has a budget. But if that is the case just park it until it can be looked at.
     
  28. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,505
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom

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