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355 Challenge brakes pads

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Aircon, Jan 13, 2004.

  1. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    89,758
    Melbourne, Australia
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    Peter
    I use my car mainly on the road with occasional use on the track on club days where I might do 5 laps in a row, and that's all. I tried Pagid blue and although great on the track, they tore my disks to shreds for road use at low temps. I'm thinking of using these...anyone had any experience with them?
    http://www.ebcbrakes.com.au/green.htm

    Peter
     
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  3. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
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    Jon K.
    Peter,

    I know people that use them here in the States where it's a popular pad with the Japanese import crowd. I think for street driving they will be fine but from what I have heard don't expect too much from them at the track. Might be a good idea to swap them out for something better at the track.

    What rotors are you using? Pagid blues and oranges are usually considered medium wear brake pads in terms of rotor life.

    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    www.flatoutracing.net
     
  4. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    89,758
    Melbourne, Australia
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    Peter
    I've got the usual brembo drilled discs. The greens are meant to be good for 600 deg celcius. My brakes only get up to about 500 (not enough laps to get hot) The pagid blues put very deep grooves in the discs and glazed them in no time flat! I'm trying to avoid having to change pads for track days....i'm lazy :)
     
  5. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
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    Jon K.
    Peter,

    I have run into the same problem on my Challenge car with the drilled Brembos especially on cold days with my Performance Friction Carbon Metalic pads. I had to tape up the cooling ducts to generate enough heat to get them to work.

    Here in the States Brembo is making a solid slotted rotor for Challenge cars that is supposed to last much longer and get rid of the problem of cracking rotors.

    Check with your Brembo distributor to see if they might have them.

    At most my rotors were lasting 2 days max which is about what the guys racing in the Challenge series were getting out of them.

    Regards,

    Jon
     
  6. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    Phil Hughes
    Solid slotted discs are available in Australia, and the best all round pad is Pagid RS19.

    The EBC's are very cheap though..........
     
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  8. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    89,758
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    Peter
    re the RS19. how do you know? Given that the blues ruined my discs, what makes you think RS19s won't? It's what the distributor suggested too, btw, but then he was also very surprised that the blues damaged my discs, so there goes a bit of credibility!

    From Pagid.....
    RS 19 YELLOW

    Best compound for endurance racing on the basis of the RS 14. A slight reduction of the friction value improves the modulation. Nevertheless, the friction value is enough for cars without power-assisted brake system and ensures comfortable low effort on the brake pedal. Constant temperatures up to 600°C (1.100°F) are possible. The combination of friction value, fading stability and low wear rates on pads and discs realised with this pad compound is unmatched up to now.

    Due to its outstanding wear rate and driveability also used at many sprint races.

    Application: All endurance racing cars from group N (Speed-WC, Grand Am Cup) up to GT and Sport-Prototypes.

    A multiple winner of Daytona 24h, Le Mans 24h, Sebring 12h, Spa 24 h, Nürburgring 24h, often with no pad change and usually no disc change.

    but what about these.....

    RS 15 GREY

    Very high torque compound. It combines a 20% higher friction value than the RS14 with a slightly increased pad wear.

    Needs finesse to avoid over braking the car. Good release characteristic and a quick bedding in procedure.

    Although the "RS15" has very good modulation it might have an excessive bite for some applications.

    or these.....


    RS 4-2-1 BLACK

    A high performance compound with low fading characteristics and high cold friction. The most comfortable medium friction sport compound. Rotor friendly and OE on various Ferrari, Lamborgini, Lotus, Bugatti and Corvette (Callaway) models. Suitable for street and light track use.
     
  9. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    Peter,

    I too am surprised at your experience with Pagid 4-2 (blue). I've found them to be a great all around pad, OE on F40 and F50. Noisy on the street, but capable of stopping a 200 mph car. I've not had dusting issues, which is typically why a pad grinds into and abrades the rotor. Hmmm.

    Orange 4-4 is softer, lower temperature, no? Try it. It may dust more though.

    I also advocate the slotted only, not drilled, rotors. The slots are there to clean the dust, and arguably do this better than drilled without playing 'connect-the-dots'. For me, they'd last three race events (9 - 12 days) or more, not two days like Jon. And I'd replace them due only to excessive run-out, not wear. BTW, Alcon rotors, while more expensive, last even longer. F355 Challenge is a common rotor size and mount pattern.

    I also like Pagid's ceramic compounds.


    Rob
     
  10. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,672
    For a street car at a track day, I recommend Ferrodo DS2500 pads. These pads will take a lot more heat then the Ferrari stock pads, and I got 25 track days on a set of rotors (32 track days including the Ferrari pads--which did fade). These pads are streetable down here in Texas even in wintertime. The pads have good initial bite and a fairly high coefficient of friction.
     
  11. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
    East Coast
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    Jon K.
    Caution, they all say friendly on the rotors. The Pagid Blacks I have been told are the least friendly of the Pagid's on terms of rotor life.

    I use PFC's for maximum performance on the track but they eat rotors faster than any other pad.

    The other issue I might add is proper bedding in of your pads and rotors. If done incorrectly or not at all you will reduce your rotor life by up to 25-30% according to one race mechanic at Ferrari of Washington.

    I am sure Rob, with all his years in the Challenge series can confirm this. Ferrari of Washington actually sent the rotors to some machine shop that had a machine for bedding in rotors.

    I have found that most people either skip the bed in proceedure or don't do it properly.

    Regards,

    Jon
     
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  13. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Social Subscribed Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    52,537
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    Rob Lay
    Will just doing some 50% slow downs and then a few hard stops be good enough to bed the brakes? I still don't understand the mechanics of "beding" and why it's necessary.
     
  14. arezzo

    arezzo Formula Junior

    Jul 29, 2003
    699
    Kuwait
    Full Name:
    SH
    Guys you need to talk to Barry Borin down at Race Technologies:

    1-310-306-3158 Ext-20

    barry@racetechnologies.com

    http://www.racetechnologies.com/catalog/

    Tell him Salman sent you. He'll solve any questions you might have with your braking systems, pads and rotors especially if you're using your cars for track days. He helped me with my Brembo upgrade on my 355 and he has been a great guy.

    Hope this helps.
     
  15. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
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    Jon K.
    Small world, Salman I used Barry for all my rotors.

    Actually his direct extension is # 23

    Regards,

    Jon
     
  16. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    No.

    I'd do this for customers frequently. My "machine" was US RT 41. Do a bunch at a time, saves time at the races.

    Bed new rotors with used pads, bed new pads with used rotors.

    • Block 70% of cooling duct.
    • Get pads up to at least 850 degF, no more than 1000 degF, in two-three laps.
    • Brake at 70% on first lap, increasing to one or two 99% stops by the end of second or third lap.
    • Give room for f*ing up the brake point, don't brake too late in case you hit 'green fade' (hard pedal, but no friction).
    • Cool down lap and pit in.
    • Let cool to ambient, move car by hand to avoid rotor hot-spots where pads cover it.
    • Remove cooling duct restrictor.
    • Good to go.

    Follow manufacturer's procedure if different from above. Use temperature indicating paint on rotor.

    Newer pad compounds bed in relatively easy.

    Always move the car slightly every couple minutes while in pits for consultation. Rotor cooling at different rates is a big contributor to warping.

    It's like breaking in an engine, make the molecules happy with their neighbor, get the chemicals from production out of the matrix.


    Best regards,

    Rob Schermerhorn
     
  17. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    Peter, I think Robs description of disc cooling is possibly what didn't happen when you used the blues, and got disc wear. I'd try them again if you were otherwise happy, and be sure to follow good care practices.

    I put RS 19 in all my modified road cars now, wherever available. They seem to have excellent cold bite....almost like a std pad, yet are equally excellent on the track.

    You know how hard calder park is on brakes......one 550 went from doing 2 laps on std pads to 8 laps with Paul Stokell (pro) driving on the RS19.

    Different car, different pads I know, but I also put them in a 365 GTC/4......and the owner overtook more cars in one meeting than he did the entire previous season........

    To protect the discs more, I can get them cryogenically (heat/freeze cycle) treated. It's not very expensive, but you have to wait for a batch to go in (2 weeks or more sometimes?).

    It rearranges the carbon molecules, making the steel less likely to warp, get hot/hard spots, and of course crack. They also last typically 30-50% longer on the 3 sets of 360 Challenge discs I've done. It's also good for driveshafts and anything prone to fatigue generally.
     
  18. BrentC

    BrentC Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2003
    278
    Everyone,

    I also have Carbon/Kevlar pads with very aggressive pricing and have full track or street compounds available. Contact me if you want more info. I will also be selling them in the paddock at Cavallino Classic in Florida if anyone wants to try them on the track. Mention you are a Ferrari Chat member and I'll even give you better pricing.

    Best regards,
    Brent
    DexM llc
     
  19. TOM B

    TOM B Formula 3

    Jul 24, 2003
    1,038
    Orange County, NY
    Full Name:
    Thomas Buckley
    I used to pre-bed my race pads. Don't laugh, but I came up with this on my own. Take an UNUSED toaster oven and set for the highest setting. This is usually 500 F +. Leave the pads in for at least 4 hours. This worked great on my Ferodo DS-11's. Never had a problem with green fade after that---this effectively boiled out all of the left over volatile compounds from the pads. That is why you need to bed in new pads---to eliminate green fade, which is caused by the formation of a thin layer of volatiles between the pad and the rotor. Hence, hard pedal but no friction.

    DO NOT TRY THIS IN YOUR KITCHEN. IT STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN. TRUST ME, IF YOU DO IT MAY COST YOU YOUR MARRIAGE . :)

    Tom
     
  20. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    89,758
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
     

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