355 Challenge Clones. Yea or Nay?

Big advantage, you can drive a clone to the track.

 

Well in Florida you guys got 3 great tracks Daytona, Homestead, and Sebring. Two of those considered iconic in our country. If your plan is to get your 355 on track then go for it but with modern stuff. The only good thing by todays standard of the 355C for racing or tracking are the 355C wheels. The wing of that era was so useless that nothing was done to balance the front aerodynamically. A real wing will force you to make front changes like addition of a splitter. The 355C cage will not pass modern tech inspection without modification. It might pass in a vintage group not because it is safe but because it is period correct. The harness, fire bottle, seats, window net are all expired even if new old stock. So if you really wanted to track the car then a modern seat, harness, harness bar or cage, and oem 355C wheels would be a start. Out right copying a 355C getting all the old stuff just does not make sense to me especially if its all for show.

 

If you can "challenge" yourself to actually find the parts to build the car, by that point, you wouldn't care what others thought. Not easy to put one together by any stretch.

 

Years ago I was very close to making a deal with Gatorgreg for his 95 street legal challenge car, which Tim now owns. He named his price, I agreed to it. He had a change of heart last minute and I don't blame him for it. That was probably my only chance of getting a hold of a street legal challenge car. I didn't want to sit around and wait for another as chances one comes up for sale is slim to none. I'm talking street legal... not just any challenge car. I feel like there's only a dozen of them in the U.S.

So I set out looking a manual 95 GTB and figured I'd try to put one together myself. Afterall, street legal 355's are standard 95 gtb's fitted with a $30k challenge kit at the dealer. I found a great car which I'm VERY pleased with and have been collecting challenge parts ever since. But I have since decided I wanted to build a light-weight 355 street car similar to what a Scuderia is to an F430. Performance parts will mostly be challenge parts.

It has taken me several years to collect:

Challenge rear grill
Challenge side grill
Challenge wheels
Challenge front and rear bumpers (20 lbs each)
Challenge rear wing
Challenge OMP seats

Other non-challenge parts will be:

High quality headers, exhaust, and suspension components.

A front lip will also be added. Fatbillybob is correct in that the 355 does need a front lip... with or without a rear wing.

 

The other funny thing about 355c's is that most if not all have crash damage. They are racecars of rich guys with often more money than developed skills. Many did not love racing working their way up from a miata to a GT3 cup car. They could afford a 355c so they gentlemen raced them with big egos and crashed them. If your 355B had crash damage there would be diminished value even if repaired. With 355c's nobody talks about past damage. Interesting isn't it? The 355 is a flexible chassis. It tears itself apart so much that the 355c's had front stiffener plates put in. Last versions of the street cars I think also had them put in. So why the big 355C value for a stretched out chassis? I rather start with a 355 streetcar that isn't all hagged out. Also, a 355c series winner is worth more than the slowest backmarker car. But I can tell you with near 100% certainty that the front running car was rode much harder than the backmarker car. The front runner can whip that car to near death and win races. The backmarker can't figure out how that frontrunning car seems to act like it has 100 more HP. Also like the 348 vs. 348C there is little difference between the 355 and 355C that can't be easily achieved with a box of parts. But the market is the market and the 355c's are up there.

 

Build it and beat on it

 

Good comments here. I agree that life is short and you should live your life and chase your dreams without worry about what others think.

I think it's great that people appreciate the challenge cars and the series history. Lot of good stories there.

I'm not one to buy a clone watch or use fake brick or stone on a house. It's just my personal desire to go get the real thing. But there are plenty of 360 challenge stradale clones and Scud clones. Some more successful than others using parts to increase performance rather than just appearance. Some cars have a combination of even better parts with more comfort than the originals for example. Look at Singer Porsche 911's. So I think we will continue to see Tailor Made F-cars. There are some talented Ferrari owners.

I remember back in the 80's some putting M badges on normal 3 series / 5 series cars for that special wow 'appearance' factor.

I think the difference here and what is on point here is that adding factory parts to your factory Ferrari is just trying to make the breed even better so you can enjoy it even more and make it a bit more unique. That's why we are drawn to the marque in the first place.

"Most" of these exercises would lose money if sold like that. For example, Stanislaus in TX is returning his 355F1 to a stock berlinetta form after modifying it with a good bit of challenge parts (for his track use) because offers for the car (as modified) were not getting him what he wanted. Better for him to make more by selling the parts separately and selling an OEM Ferrari.

No wrong answer, but I can tell you that there is a substantial difference between the stock '95 B and the (factory) challenge car. It is definitely by using the whole package that drivers will see the biggest difference.

I also agree that there are faster, newer cars but that's not why we love the F355.

If an owner wasn't interested in buying for originality with the car's history and race records to run in a vintage series or show, and and just wanted to get maximum improvement out of their car, I'd look mainly at a tighter suspension, bigger brakes, rubber, and losing weight with other improvements (like seats) depending on your use and how often you'll be on the track. I'll defer to FBB on what you can focus on. But there are better (newer) component options to look at rather than OEM challenge parts.

All F355 are really fantastic. Life is short. Enjoy all of them. Share your stories and don't forget the photos.

Robb

 

Yes life is short! Do what you want for you. Our opinions just give food for thought. Once you know what you want the direction will be clear.

 

Interesting and informative thread here:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/challenge-gt-cars/224923-challenge-cars-street-legal.html

 

There will always be a premium for an original Challenge car as there should be.

You can build a replica Challenge car -exact- with factory parts. That's no way comparable to a fake Rolex or fake brick.

It's not fake, it's exactly the same, even if it didn't come from the factory that way, as Ken mentioned, either did the originals.

More comparable to changing the face or dial on a Rolex or replacing original brick with upgraded brick. Not original and should be noted but doesn't make it less real.

 

At speed the challenge wing produces minimal downforce that the decklid was never designed to support. So I guess those wimpy supports are for that. But if this is for show and 95% of driving is under 100mph I doubt you need them. Contrast that with a modern real wing of that size and you would have 300lbs of downforce with 30lbs of drag at 120mph. That is one whole fat person on your decklid! Real wings support on the chassis.

 

I agree with this view but sourcing all the parts would be a monumental feat. Stan has a decent package up for sale at 30k but is still missing quite a few bits including all the aerodynamic stuff like bumpers, wing etc.

 

I agree, not saying at all it would be an easy or inexpensive task, just that it is possible.

 

Here is a few shots of my spare wing decklid


Yes they need support of some kind at speed
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If I were to make a clone I would start with an empty slate
Totally different suspension and braking system

 

I don't know enough about suspensions to even know where to start.

 

To have the same function , look, or put together the same with the exact same parts-- absolutely. To be considered an actual challenge car -- most likely not. Although early street versions were put together by dealers, they were still contracted or authorized by Ferrari to do so with official challenge paperwork and titles to go with it. Dealers acted as an extension of Ferrari. And for that reason alone, those cars will have the prestige that comes along with being official. If actually raced in an official challenge series ... even better.

I think the perspective the OP should take is --- Ferrari built the challenge car to show off what the 355 can with a more focused build. Parts are or were available for order if you wanted to upgrade certain performance aspects of your car. Doesn't necessarily mean one is trying to build a challenge car. People have opted to add Fiorano handling packages to their 355s. Doesn't mean they're trying to build a Serie Fiorano. It just so happens alot of performance parts or good-looking parts (challenge grille, speedline wheels, etc) come off the challenge cars.

Ironically, in many cases, it's even a "challenge" for real challenge 355s to be fully equipped with original parts because they have been changed around over the years. There's a RHD 355 in Australia asking $600k AUD ($500k usd) and it doesn't even have to correct OMP seats. Heck, even I have the correct seats. What makes the challenge car visually attractive and distinctive to me are the Speedline wheels, brembo race brakes, challenge wing, and the correct OMP carbon seats and surprisingly many challenge cars that have sold for high prices is missing at least one of those components.

 

I disagree. If you got all the box of parts any 355 can be a challenge car but only some cars were factory challenge cars and that includes the 348. Prior to 1996 all challenge cars were streetcars with a box of parts. After '95 the 355C's were not smog legal without the 5.2 motronic thus any 355'C dated 1996 was "challenge racecar" not for street and can't be made street legal (in Cali anyway.) So People just need to know that the 355 was a transitional model for streetcar vs. racecar.

The reason those old challenge cars are missing parts is because those race parts expire. People raced those cars in non-Ferrari places and either required new stuff or could not fit a narrow challenge seat or any number of reasons. Those cars that are factory challenge cars are no less challenge cars even if missing stuff. So buyers need to know and get educated about challenge cars and a basic understanding of racing organization's tech rules to get a bead on what they are looking at. For example you could be looking at a '95 challenge car raced in SCCA that you want to get a street registration for. But running in SCCA the cage is required to be updated by welding. If you did not realize that you would be in for a surprise and new costs when you tried to unbolt the welded cage. At the most basic level any challenge car raced after the challenge series would need current harness. It is very rare to see a challenge car with the original harness but if you don't know harnesses you could be fooled.

 

Good points. I look forward to seeing the builds.

Robb

 

#11 is definitely needed.

All 355 engine lids come with 2 recessed sections for challenge wing mounting brackets. Could this be Ferrari's way of saying... "install a wing if you want" ?

I haven't seen an engine lid for sale for anything less than $2k. Bruce Wright has one in Rosso Corsa.

 

Like that statements here by FBB and Ken

Tribute or clone cars are nice however I would do it with better parts and leave the original challenge parts to the challenge cars. There is just so much better stuff available to make the 355 nutzy choo choo of a ride. Just look at those hill climb cars!! They make me soil my rhinestone G string

About the original raced challenge cars taking a beating FBB talked about. What gets me is the beauty / patina they get from racing. True when you wreck something you fix what matters to make it better performance wise not so much cosmetically.

I was going to restore mine but just dont have the heart to make it clean again. I have a new body shell sitting here to do it but I think I may just do a "hill climb" car one day instead.

Something real special about the 95 Challenge cars that ran competitively back in the day, they are the real deal knuckle scrapers.

 

I'm certainly not adept in how the rules were back then. Are you saying if Joe Schmoe purchased a challenge kit and installed it on his 95 GTB outside of a Ferrari dealer (back then), he could officially register his car in the challenge series? Or is this something that had to be done at a Ferrari dealer with official paperwork?