355 engine fails leak down test | FerrariChat

355 engine fails leak down test

Discussion in '348/355' started by fatarnie, Jun 29, 2009.

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  1. fatarnie

    fatarnie Karting

    Jan 2, 2008
    59
    UK
    I am a relatively Ferrari novice, but I am building a sports car which uses the chassis of an Ultima and will look a lot like a 330/P4 and be powered by F355 running gear.

    Today I have driven 450 miles to collect an F355 engine, but sadly i have returned empty handed. In my toolbox I had a leak down tester and an endoscope.

    Having spent 4 hours making up an adapter to get the leak down tester to screw into the oddly pitched 355 plug threads, I set about running the test. The engine has done 19,000 miles and has been removed from a car which had a tree where the passenger seat was previously fitted.

    So to the test results:

    7 of the 8 cylinders gave minimal leakage <5%

    The 8th cylinder leaks about 50% of the pressure from one of the exhaust valves when the piston is at TDC on the firing stroke. This is obviously not good, but I have read referrals to carbon buildup on valves causing problems of this nature. How big an issue is this? Should I run a mile and get an engine elsewhere, or is this a common, easily fixed issue?

    The engine was last run about 1 year ago and has not run since. It cannot be run now as the car is in too many pieces. The seller is a bit lacking in terms of coming to a constructive resolution, and is as such unable to respond beyond saying it sounded OK when we ran it a year ago. This would have been static and not under any kind of load. How does the carbon buildup issue manifest itself in terms of symptoms of engine running?

    I'm not bothered by anything which is not an internal part of the engine, and I think I am mechanically savvy enough to remove the cylinder head, get the guides and seats reworked and rebuild. I am however a bit scared of potential costs. Can someone give me an idea of the parts cost to do this (gaskets, valves etc.)
    Many thanks for any opinions.

    At £7k inc all ancilleries should I buy or run? Douglas Valley have a similar mileage bare engine (no loom ECU, alt, A/C pump/PAS pump - half of this I don't need) at £5750. I would prefer to avoid a lemon.

    Advice much appreciated.
     
  2. dlynes

    dlynes Formula 3

    Oct 16, 2004
    2,450
    Augusta, Ga
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I do not have any advice as to buy or run but I am glad that you performed the leak down test prior to buying so you did not purchase the engine as is and not having that disclosed.

    best of luck whatever you do though...
     
  3. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

    Jun 26, 2007
    5,822
    Hamilton, NewZealand
    Full Name:
    James
    My first thought was to run, but worse case you are looking at new valve's and guides (both heads...), at best its just carbon build up. A spirited run, once the car is up to it, will clear the chambers, seats and exhaust...

    I think it comes down to what sort of deal you can work with the seller, if you can buy it for the "right" price and add to this the potential cost of the rebuild, if that totals a price you are happy with then go this way, remember once you have rebuilt the heads you are set, another engine with good numbers can become an engine with bad numbers...

    If I was in you shoes I would weigh up the above and if the engine was a go then I would assemble the car and drive it with that engine how it is, then recheck the leak down numbers after 200kms of good driving.
     
  4. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    18,045
    USA
    50% probably too much to be simply a carbon build up symptom. Removing the intake manifold and run your endoscope in there to look around?
     
  5. pureclass

    pureclass Rookie

    Jun 27, 2009
    13
    how about selling what you dont need to buy new valves. 355 are notorious for bad valve guides. might be a good idea to replace while your there.
     
  6. 355dreamer

    355dreamer F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Apr 3, 2006
    10,476
    DC Metro
    Full Name:
    L.C.
    Ultima? P4? 355? I would love to know more about your project and see some pics.
     
  7. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    29,014
    socal
    I'm a pretty advanced diy'er and I'd be running unless I got the motor really really cheap. These engines fail leakdown all the time. In fact few will say it but this is the worst ferrari engine ever made. When it runs perfectly it is awesome. The facts seem to be it is pretty hard to find them with good numbers. People are on this board all the time looking for 355's and then posting about how the car seems to run so great but have crappy leakdown. All I can say is drive one with a good engine and hold on! The problem is finding one. If you don't have to have a 355 engine there are so many other better choices.
     
  8. MarkCollins

    MarkCollins F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Jul 2, 2002
    3,202
    South England
    Full Name:
    Mark Collins
    Arnie

    Sorry missed your call, out last night, I guess it was about this, it's not uncommon for an exhaust valve to be burnt through particularly if the car has had a failed manifold in the past, a leakdown failure of this level would suggest a fairly serious problem that could have caused further issues with rings (which you can't buy separately from the piston).

    I was with QV just the Week before last looking at an engine with a burnt valve, the bill for the engine repair exc removal / refit was close to £3k

    I'd probably try and find one without a problem
     
  9. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

    May 26, 2006
    10,244
    U.S.A.
    Full Name:
    goth
    ................ you are on the right track in using a 355 engine .............. when I get to building my custom chassis ........ I too will be using a 355 engine ............ there is nothing like individual throttle bodies ........... :D
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,104
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    You can buy rings by themselves. In fact here I think that is the only way to get them but they do run about $100 US for EACH ring.
     
  11. fatarnie

    fatarnie Karting

    Jan 2, 2008
    59
    UK
    Thx Guys,

    Mark, you are right, that was the purpoe of my call. ES do sell rings for £125/set although I also had an endoscope down the plug holes and all looks OK. Sadly it is hard to see the seats of the valves, but generally all looked to be in order.
     
  12. 355

    355 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 4, 2005
    3,643
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Frank
     
  13. 355spider96

    355spider96 Karting

    Mar 28, 2007
    103
    Could it be because it was sitting for way too long? Ive seen some 355's that owners did not start for a lonnnnng time run like trash when they first started them, they eventually ran smoother and smoother.
     
  14. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
    17,850
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    John!
     
  15. gidge348

    gidge348 Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2008
    343
    Perth West Australia
    Full Name:
    Ian Wood
    One other thing you may want to try, because the the car came to violent stop (ie. tree in the pasenger seat).

    If you can get the exhause manifold off, wind it over to open the exhaust on 8 spray some CRC or similar in the valves, plug hole etc wind over and blow out with air.

    May just have picked up some crud under the valve?

    If the 355 has not had the guides and seats done recently, I would also budget in the project for a top over haul at some time in the future regardless of if the numbers come up ok.
     
  16. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,629
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    29,014
    socal
     
  18. fatarnie

    fatarnie Karting

    Jan 2, 2008
    59
    UK
    Well, I bought it.

    I've stipped the throttle bodies and manifolds off, and stuck the endoscope in the back of the exhaust valves. One of them has a small white lump on it and a similar tracking mark as if the edge of the valve has cracked and the sodium has leaked out. It looks white, but the contrast of the endoscope is poor so it may just be some contamination. Whatever its right on the valve seat, so could prevent the valve from closing properly.

    So to investigate further I need to remove the head. Does anyone in the SE of the UK (ideally nr Gatwick) have the tool to undo the head bolts?


    Thanks
     
  19. MarkCollins

    MarkCollins F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Jul 2, 2002
    3,202
    South England
    Full Name:
    Mark Collins
  20. fatarnie

    fatarnie Karting

    Jan 2, 2008
    59
    UK
    I was hoping you'd have one Mark!

    Seriously however, thats a fair bit cheaper than the genuine item!

    Gives me a course of action if no-one has one to lend....

    Cheers,

    Arnie
     
  21. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

    Feb 6, 2009
    34,777
    Ontario, Canada
    Full Name:
    Mike
    +1. I am glad you were able to test and did not end up with a lemon.
     
  22. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,629
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms
     
  23. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 3, 2003
    3,809
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Brian
    #23 brian.s, Jul 4, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
     
  24. 355

    355 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 4, 2005
    3,643
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Frank
    Agreed.
     
  25. fatarnie

    fatarnie Karting

    Jan 2, 2008
    59
    UK
    Interestingly my last car revved to 9750rpm and produced 300bhp from 2093cc and was normally aspirated. It broke a few times nmainly due to issues with the dry sump system, but as an amateur built engine it never showed any signs of serious wear when stripped and examined.

    The 355 engine has both good and bad news.

    I've taken the head off the left bank and:
    The cylinder in question had a piece of silicon contaminant stuck behind the exhaust valve, and this was the cause of the leak down failure.

    The bads news is that sometime in its life the engine has suffered an ingestion ( a small maybe 3mm x 1mm x 1mm piece of steel is the only evidence, which is enbedded in the head) such that the top of the piston is peppered, and both the squish area of the cylinder head adjacent to the exhaust valves and teh corresponding part of the piston crown is also badly pitted.

    So a replacement piston and a bit of welding to the head is required.

    I'll be taking this up with the supplier on Monday.

    I'm going back out to the garage to remove the sump and for a much closer look at the other bank now just to be sure all is ok over there.
     

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