355 F1 will not start | FerrariChat

355 F1 will not start

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Cchris0411, Nov 26, 2006.

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  1. Cchris0411

    Cchris0411 Rookie

    Jul 5, 2005
    46
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    The car is a 1999 355 F1 with 17000 miles on it. The engine was removed and the major service was completed. The engine was re-installed the ten or so plugs were plugged in and the computer was plugged back in. The fluids were topped up and the power was turned on. The car crankes over but no start, no fuel pump activation and no "check engine light" indicating that the computer is either burnt out, has a short to it, has no power or...
    We checked all the fuses and relays. We changed one relay located behind the driver's eat as it was not functioning.. Not sure what this relay is for.. we are still searching. Right now the car is powered down and the battery is under charge...
    Did I miss something stupid..
    Let's hear your thoughts
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,736
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Does ignition occur, or not occur, during starter motor cranking? If not, do the engine timing sensor and engine revolution sensor outputs look reasonable?
     
  3. Cchris0411

    Cchris0411 Rookie

    Jul 5, 2005
    46
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    I will check that right now the engine does crank but no fuel pump..
     
  4. chiprich

    chiprich Karting

    Nov 6, 2006
    53
    the security key fob. If not, engine will turn over but not fire. Good luck.
     
  5. Cchris0411

    Cchris0411 Rookie

    Jul 5, 2005
    46
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    Thanks for the reply, I have a double blink and sound when the alarm is de-activated...
    I wish I could say that this is the first time this has happened on this car, it seems that after every oil change, wheel alignment, window cleaning the car just refuses to work.. I generally walk away from the car for a few days and by some strange chance it fires right up..
    I have suspected a bad alarm unit for some time and wish to the Ferrari gods on this site for a way to pull the alarm out of the car.. This time I think it may be more..
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,736
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Have you ever refreshed the damping grease in your "dual-mass" flywheel (assuming that the description "with flywheel damping" given in your OM actually means that you've got something similar to the 348/355 6-speed dual-mass flywheel design)?

    You might try a search on something like "348 flywheel" and/or "355 flywheel" and see if some of the discussion/symptoms sound familiar -- "rattling" on warm shutdown IIRC, etc..

    Even if the sensors are working, if the ECU detects that the timing of the signal(s) from the sensor(s) is(are) messed up because the crankshaft angular velocity is not matching the ring gear angular velocity, I believe it intentionally inhibits starting -- just another thought if both sensors seem to be working...
     
  7. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    Spray 2 bursts of starter fluid into the air intake, then attempt to restart the engine.

    Does that start it up? Does it run and then die after this spray is exhausted or does it keep running?
     
  8. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,935
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    First..when you open the door does the interior light turn on? I know it sounds funny, but have a look. If it does not, you may have crossed a conector behined the seats where the engine ECU is located.

    Next thing to check, is to be sure your fuel lines are not crossed at the connection point at the front of the engine.

    These 2 little things either one will keep the car from starting.
     
  9. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,629
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms

    Alarm:

    I have bypassed (2) on the 355's for insurance companys at their request. To keep the remainder of the fleet safe, I will not share this info. In the wrong hands it would have dire results.

    Starting:

    Who did the engine out? Check the 2 retangular electrical plugs in the left rear engine bay behind the shock tower. One plug has small wires the other has larger gauge. Small wires to small wires of equal size. Cross them and you have problems (located this problem while doing janitorial duties). If they are crossed, turn the battery off and report back before trying anything else.

    Dave
     
  10. Cchris0411

    Cchris0411 Rookie

    Jul 5, 2005
    46
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    THis is great, thak you for te help. THe rectangular plugs are plugged in correctly. The plugs were marked prior to removal to ensure they are correctly plugged in.


    ___----First..when you open the door does the interior light turn on? I know it sounds funny, but have a look. If it does not, you may have crossed a conector behined the seats where the engine ECU is located.

    Ok the door lights go on when the door is open so those plugs are correctly plugged in.. So I think I have all of the plugs in the right places.

    ____-----Even if the sensors are working, if the ECU detects that the timing of the signal(s) from the sensor(s) is(are) messed up because the crankshaft angular velocity is not matching the ring gear angular velocity, I believe it intentionally inhibits starting

    I am not sure if this is correct or not but this could be the case.. I sure hope not..

    Any other help?
    THanks
     
  11. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,931
    socal
    If the timing is wrong you will not start.

    ND loves my starter fluid trick. I bet you went right home to buy some after we had dinner. Anyway...Did you listen to ND? A good running engine on starter fluid eliminates many potential problems. If you get stuck I am in Redondo Beach Ca. I could rally Plugzit and we could get it going for you. But you will have to pay us with beer and pizza.
     
  12. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    OMG! Christopher, you have NO IDEA how much FatBillyBob eats! Cheaper just to buy the can of starter fluid (~~$2 at AutoZone or NAPA or wherever).

    FBB is right that his trick starts a lot of dead Ferraris. If you are getting spark, that starter fluid will get the engine running in all but cars with significant problems.

    You don't want to feed that guy! I've already bought one dinner for him. I know!

    Yeah, he'll get your Ferrari running, but you'll have to spend the rest of the night watching him eat! He's an eating machine!

    Surely you can spray starter fluid from a spray can into your air intake without him!
     
  13. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2004
    7,775
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bruce Bogart
    Probably cheaper to have it flatbedded to a shop and pay some guy $125/hr to troubleshoot it than to feed the Great Obese One!
    Where's the car? FBB and I, maybe Ernie too,-the Three Stooges, may be able to lay hands on it and fire that puppy.
     
  14. Cchris0411

    Cchris0411 Rookie

    Jul 5, 2005
    46
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    LMAO I think I know at least one of you guys and bought parts via ebay some time ago. I am the guy with the silver 355 F1 and the red 355 Spyder.
    After my morning coffeee I will buy the starting fluid and give it a blow.. Hoping not to blow the engine. If this is not the issue the engine will come back out and I will sendit to Michael in Costa Mesa.. oh he moved but you know what I am saying..
    Since this is not the first time that this has happened I truly want to get to the bottom of this issue.. I am thinking crank sensor but will not jump to any conclusions until later
    I will keep you posted until it fires up
     
  15. Cchris0411

    Cchris0411 Rookie

    Jul 5, 2005
    46
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    Good day, went out and got the starting fluid. Sprayed it in and the engine fired. But will not run. I am now going o hook up the OB2 and see what it says.
     
  16. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    The relay behind your seat is probably an F1-tranny-related part. Since your car starts with starter fluid, you know that your ECU's aren't fried and that you are getting spark and decent timing.

    Since the car dies as soon as the starter fluid is used up you also know that your problem is that fuel isn't getting to your motor.

    You can hot-wire a fuel-pump relay to force the pump on (or determine that the pump has a problem). You can also figure out if the fuel pump relay is getting the signal to turn on.

    That should take care of most of the system prior to the engine (presuming that you've verified that you have gasoline in the car regardless of what the fuel gauge claims).

    If that's OK then I'd look at the fuel lines from the fuel pumps to the fuel filters/fuel pressure regulators/fuel injectors.

    You've got spark. You've got working computers. You've got timing.

    The above tests should help figure out why you don't have fuel.
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,057
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Can't diagnose the problem with the motor laying on the floor. Personally I think you got very good advice in post #8.
     
  18. Cchris0411

    Cchris0411 Rookie

    Jul 5, 2005
    46
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    I am back!!!
    Hey guys sorry I did not get back to you with my issue, I had some medical stuff happen.
    I returned to my desert home last week and dropped the engine again. I pulled the cam belt cover and double checked the timing and it is dead on and degreed to specs.. I was truly hoping that this was the issue but it was not. The great news is that it took me one day to remove the engine and one day to put it back, 1/2 a day to tie it all up.. I will be selling my business and starting a belt service company :) Kidding
    So here it goes, I turned on the power and cranked the engine.. still no fuel pump..
    I energized the pump to pressurize the system still no go.. Will go back at it tomorrow.....
    LOVING THIS CAR.. not
     
  19. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Kenneth
    I am a little confused. The starter fluid suggested you are having a fuel delivery problem, so you pulled the engine?

    Is the fuel pump working or not? Did it turn on but it's not pumping fuel? Or is it dead? Did you jump 12 volts directly to it and see if it works? One thing I would NOT do is spend big bucks for a new one before you test it independently of the ignition system. If the pump works, then I guess you trace the path from there to the engine...

    My 2 cents.

    Ken
     
  20. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,365
    Frederick, Maryland
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    I think that you need to pull the engine out again. You know they say the third times a charm.
     
  21. SpannerMan

    SpannerMan Karting

    Nov 7, 2005
    116
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    Erik Rathmann
    Sounds like good spark but no injector pulse. pull an injector connector and test for voltage on one of the two wires with key on. verify all fuses are good.
    hope you find it before you are forced to sell it to me for a dollar. :)

    E
     
  22. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    It's nice to have the feedback on your progress, but it's not to your advantage to have not listened to the advice given to you.

    Wow! You dropped the engine instead of doing fuel checks?! Are your fuel pumps running? Getting juice? Fuel in the gas tank? Clogged fuel filters or lines or mismatched connections?!

    These are tests that aren't aided by dropping the engine.

    What's really going on here?
     
  23. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
    5,058
    Did ya remember to put ya fuel cap back on????:D
     
  24. Cchris0411

    Cchris0411 Rookie

    Jul 5, 2005
    46
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    Hey guys have a look at previous posts, I had dropped the engine to do a belt service. The reason I dropped the engine again was that I was uncertain that I had used the correct information for setting the timing. In the end I dropped the engine and had a pro come by and set up the timing. It actually turned out I was dead on when it came to the timing.
    THAT is why I dropped the engine again.
    What the issue is is that I do not have a pulse to the injectors, and no fuel pump. The pump is not broken, when I by-passed the relay the pump engages but the engine will not fire because I do not have an injector pulse.
     
  25. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,935
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Please..Check your fuel lines where they attach near the pwr steering pump..you may have them reversed!
     

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