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355F1 360 pump update some great info $$$

Discussion in '348/355' started by tr512, Aug 22, 2015.

  1. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 Veteran
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    Thanks for your reply.
    Funnily enough, the TOB (which I assume is what is also referred to as the CRB) was the very first part I had replaced about two years ago when I started having issues.
    I replaced the original part with a Hill Engineering CRB and at the same time they replaced the clutch position sensor.
    This did not solve the problem I had at the time (gear selection failures) but it also co-incides exactly with when another problem arose, and that “new” problem is still remaining to this day (the original problem was finally fixed by replacing a solenoid on the F1 power unit).
    In the meantime I have had a second mechanic look at the CRB install and he said it looks fine, and I even emailed Hill Engineering to see if they thought it was possible that the bearing was faulty, but they said that was extremely unlikely.

    Long story short I’ve replaced literally every component of the F1 and clutch system in the last two years, except the actual pump.

    The remaining issue is the “beeping” clutch overheat warning which I get on every take-off once the car is warm, and a very long pump prime as described above.

    The car actually drives beautifully and gearchanges are crisp and precise.
    The clutch parameters have been looked at and studied more times than the Dead Sea Scrolls - They are fine.

    Something else is going on here.
     
  2. FlyingHaggisRacing

    FlyingHaggisRacing Formula 3
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    #52 FlyingHaggisRacing, Mar 14, 2019 at 8:34 AM
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019 at 8:45 AM
    If it was the TOB or the union block you would have fluid on the floor.

    Now, i understand that it's not unheard of that the accumulator can be fault from the off.
    or as said the EV0, clutch solenoid, needs new seals, or worst case has some scratches in the bore.

    Once running, how long do the recharges take, are they normal ?

    Is there a possibility that the system has air in it and needs bleed ?
     
  3. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    #53 Dave rocks, Mar 14, 2019 at 9:13 AM
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019 at 9:19 PM
    Steve, try and define "ages" by timing it.

    I'll check mine but I don't recall it ever doing that.

    The dash flashes stop once pressure is met. The motor will still run for a bit after. The dash light going off is to let you know the system is now able to accept a gear shift, but the system is still not fully charged which is why the motor still runs.

    It's possible the pump is bad, but I doubt it. It can be taken apart and inspected.

    We've discussed this before and I know you respect the tech but from a far, it seems as he may not have the proper tools to diagnose these issues as it seems you keep throwing parts at this problem. Some times it's a good idea to get a fresh look from another tech - he may see something the other is missing and it doesn't make the first guy a bad person.
     
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  4. WATSON

    WATSON F1 Veteran
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    Dave covered a lot of the proper points.

    The symptoms you describe are all related to the F1 fluid pressure.

    To accomplish system pressure the system has these components:
    - Electric motor (the sound you hear when the pump is running)
    - Pump driven by electric motor
    - Accumulator bulb to store F1 fluid and build hydraulic pressure
    - F1 solenoid assy that consumes the pressure to shift gears.
    - F1 pressure sensor to tell the system what the pressure is and toggle the system based on that reading.

    If you hear the electric motor and no fuses are blowing, it most likely is not the motor.
    It could be the pump itself, but that pump is simply two gears in a housing. That's it. Unless you tossed sand in your F1 fluid, I doubt it is the pump itself
    The accumulator bulb stores hydraulic pressure. If the internal bladder has failed the pump is trying to feed pressure to the system directly. It will:
    -----make the electric motor / pump run a lot.
    -----the more you shift the more likely it will simply stop shifting due to low pressure supply
    -----It will take more than 6 blinks of the F1 indicator light to pressurize the system from cold.
    I would be interested to know what solenoid you replaced in the solenoid assy. This is uncharted territory. If it is off slightly, it could create pressurization problems.
    ----In fact, if the accumulator bulb has been replaced I would be looking here in great detail
    Lastly is the pressure sensor. If it is failing, or having wiring connection issues, it will trigger false directions to the system. Check or replace it.

    I have never heard of a clutch overheat buzzer. That's new to me. What is that?

    Best of luck.
     
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  5. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 Veteran
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    Thanks All.

    I'm sure we can eliminate the accumulator as the issue, as this was replaced with a new unit less than 300 miles ago. I did this because of the long-running pump issue but it did not fix it.

    Dave, you are right - the occasional pump continuing on after shut-down is a new thing. In my eight years and 12,000 miles of ownership the car has not done this before.
    As above, I have owned and driven this car for a long time. I have put way more miles on it than any of the previous owners. Hence I know how it should drive and how it should feel.
    The pump behaviour I am describing is new and obviously not right. Even though the gear changes are crisp it's obvious that the pump is being called on to work much more than it should.
    I am interested in perhaps the clutch solenoid or the pressure sensor, as I don't think these items have been replaced. And of course the pump itself.
    And it could just be that the system needs to be bled again.

    Watson I'll have to check my records but I believe it was the EV1 and EV2 solenoids that were replaced, and doing this fixed my gear-change issue.

    The only remaining issues are the beeping - this is a warning which is supposed to tell you that the clutch is overheating. It does not use a temp sensor but some computer calculations to decide that the clutch is slipping or whatever. If you try to reverse up a steep hill you may set it off, or if you are in a long period of stop / start / crawl traffic. In those situations if it goes off it is working properly. What it is doing in my car is not right - and the long priming.

    Dave I have had four completely separate mechanics (from four different businesses) look at the beeping issue. All factory trained and all with SDX equipment.
    I have even sent a bunch of data to a 355F1 expert in Sydney (700 miles from me) and none of them can see anything unusual in the way the clutch is set up or the data the SDX is putting out. All of the settings appear normal. If you like I can see if I've still got those screenshots and send them on to you (or anyone else).

    I'm no mechanic but it seems obvious to me that if a problem previously didn't exist, then you install some new parts and suddenly the problem appears, then surely the problem is most likely caused by the new parts?

    This beeping issue began on the very day we replaced the CRB and the clutch position sensor.
    At that point the old original clutch was still in the car, as were all the other old parts that have since been replaced.
     
  6. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    All good points
    What about air.

    I know mine had a line that was leaking a few years ago so check the lines themselves
     
  7. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 Veteran
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    Thanks Grant. That's kind of what I was wondering with my original question.
    If the pump and all the other bits are working fine but it still takes a long time to prime and is being called on to work a lot harder than it should, what else could it be?
     
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  8. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Just to clarify that same beeper and sound also indicate doors and bonnets being open as well as parking brake not being activated upon shutting car off in neutral.
    If this is beeping then someth8ng is wrong with the clutch. I thought wwe discussed this a while ago.
    I would take the clutch back apart and confirm all dimensions and ensure an original clutch was installed and not some aftermarket one.
    This way you have absolutly elimated the mechanical parts of the clutch.
    Also as i said earlier check the fluid lines for any leaks.
     
  9. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    People do crazy th8ngs without all ways know8ng the ramifications.
    I had to help a guy who put a kevlar clutch 8n his f1 th8nking it would be way better and if you could break it in properly it may work but it caused lots of weird issues such as working very well and then not working good at all.
     
  10. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

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    It was the EV1 and EV2 valves, Steve

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/146145724/
     
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  11. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 Veteran
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    Yes it is the same beeper.
    I guess it could be the clutch, but remember this beeping started while the old clutch was in the car and is continuing to do exactly the same thing even though we have replaced the clutch and lots of other components.
    Logic suggests the beeping has to be related to the new CRB and clutch position sensor, rather than the setup of the new clutch.

    Thanks, Ian.
     
  12. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Steve, yes, please send me SD data.
     
  13. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 Veteran
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    email sent. Thanks Dave
     
  14. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 Veteran
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    I just went out and took a video of the flashes and listening to the pump prime. I last drove the car 24 hours ago.

    The light flashed 8 times, and the pump continued to run for another 8 seconds after the light stopped flashing, 18 seconds in total.

    That doesn't seem too bad, but what I have noticed that is clearly different is that even if I've only stopped the car for half an hour the pump runs for a similar amount of time.
    In the past in that circumstance the pump would only run for a couple of seconds at most, and only couple of flashes of the light.
     
  15. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Kindof obvious but i will ask anyway.
    Is there any appreciable loss of fluid measured in the reservoir thus indicating a leak
     
  16. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Just to be clear Steve when I say the mechanicals of the clutch I also mean the bearing, sensors and the rest of the mechanicals
     
  17. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    My opinion is that if you are getting the beeping almost right away the system is thinking its engaugeing the clutch or its dragg8ng possibly by sensing a load on the engine.
    Following that logic maybe jack up the car and see if the clutch is dragging
     
  18. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    In my mind that beeping is telling us that mechanicslly someth8ng is wrong with the setup. Seeems logical
    I think you are correct with the throwout bearing analagy because this would be one main indicator to the coputer that the clutch is dragging, another being engine load.
    Dave may have some insights from the sd that could confirm incorrect calibration or something
     
  19. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    These systems are not allways consistent.
    One time when working on my car an sd would not bleed the clutch, next time no problem
     
  20. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 Veteran
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    There is no loss of fluid.

    Bottom line, this problem started when I had the CRB from Hill Engineering installed along with a new clutch position sensor from Ferrari. Therefore I am going to order a new CRB from Ferrari and put it in.
    I think it’s a waste of time endlessly chasing the clutch setup. In my view that is not the problem.
    This beeping occurred with the old clutch, and has continued with the new.

    I think it’s important to separate the issues I’ve been having. It’s just a shame that they have occurred around the same time, thus blurring everything.

    1. The gearchange issue. This was ultimately solved with the replacement solenoids.

    2. The beeping issue. This only began when while chasing issue 1 I installed the replacement CRB and sensor.

    3. The “new” slow priming & overuse of the F1 pump issue.
     
  21. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Steve - I was / am happy to review your parameters and compare with mine. However, I'm no expert on this - I'm learning daily. What you really need is a boots on the ground tech that knows this system extremely well and can get to the bottom of it. Throwing parts at the problem is not the way to diagnose and correct these issues. Hill Engineering makes quality components. You have been dealing with this issues for a long, long time. Get a fresh set of eyes on the problem, from someone who has experience with 355 F1 systems. I wish you the very best getting these issues resolved.
     
  22. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Thats sound advice but by the sounds of it in Australia Steve is likely one of the most knowledgeable.
    Hopefully so e9ne there can guide you.
    I think you are heading down the correct path but as Dave said likely not the hill bearing but rather the. Install.
    Either way good luck
     
  23. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 Veteran
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    #73 Steve355F1, Mar 19, 2019 at 3:04 AM
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019 at 3:10 AM
    Thanks Guys.
    Believe me I appreciate every contribution and suggestion. And the best thing is that others are bound to have similar issues at some stage and hopefully this thread can help.
    Dave, I will send you the rest of the diagnostic pages as soon as I have them, but I really feel like enough people who are considered 355F1 experts have studied the clutch settings and all of them have said they appear normal. Those diagnostic pages have gone to the factory, a guy in Singapore recommended by the factory, a guy in Sydney recommended by others on this website, as well as all the local experts in my home city including the best independent Ferrari mechanic here who knows my car very well.
    I've been a commercial pilot and occasional aircraft owner for 25 years. I've experienced many mechanical problems and have had to explain in detail to engineers what the symptoms are and helped troubleshoot the cause of all sorts of issues.
    To me, it seems logical that if a problem suddenly appears the day you change one part for another it is very likely caused by the replacement part.
    Not every time, for sure, but certainly most of the time.
    After exhausting virtually every other possibility, I feel it's time to pull out that HE Clutch Release Bearing.
    A new one is not exactly an expensive part (especially in the context of what I've done as this process has gone on), and when they install another OEM one they will also bleed the system and fill it with new fluid and no doubt set up the clutch yet again.
    Of course it could also be a dud clutch position sensor - which was the only other thing replaced the day the HE bearing went in - but if the sensor was faulty I'd expect to get nonsensical values on the diagnostics, which I'm not getting.
    However, I am tossing around the idea of getting another new sensor anyway.

    We have about another 8 weeks of nice weather here before it turns crappy and I'd stop driving my car anyway, so the plan is to keep driving it for now, order these parts as well as a 360F1 pump and just get it all done over winter.
    While that's happening I'll remove and send all my stickies over to Dave in one package so that next summer all of this should be sorted and my car will be better than ever!

    :)
     

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