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360 Brake upgrades

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Izza, Feb 10, 2004.

  1. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
    London
    I own a 01 360 spider and have recently started taking it on track days. Unfortunately, due proabably to a mix of poor technique and standard OEM parts I did suffer from brake fade.

    In looking to cure this issue and improve performance via upgrades to the braking system. Part of this process has involved acquiring some CS wheels with the softer P Zero Corsa rubber and possible changing of brake fluid to DOT 5. However, given the larger rims I am keen to increase the size of the discs and pads (e.g. discs up to the equiv. of the CS or 996 turbo with 380mm on front and 355mm on rear).

    Due to the cost I delined a CS brake kit with Carbon Ceramic discs. However, can anyone here advise on suitable steel disc kits or distributors? The Brembo Gran Turismo appeals but I can't find anyone offering bigger than 355mm for Ferrari upgrades.

    Regards

    Izza
     
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  3. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
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    Phil Hughes
    Just use 360 Challenge brakes, on the front only. They're at least as good as the Carbon CS set up, and the parts are more accessible for servicing.

    DOT5 fluid won't really help you much, you should have it in anyway already if your dealer is doing their job properly. Use a proper race fluid or Castrol SRF is a good road/race one.

    Your standard brakes/calipers can be made better by using a better pad material. I'm a PAGID fan, but there are a miriad of choices. I like the Yellow RS19 for absolutely all road cars.

    Cooling is the major problem.......the 360 has none, even the CS has no cooling! Use challenge air ducts and then the steel braided flexi lines that go with it.

    Don't swallow dealer BS about SD2 bleeding either. Just use a pressure system into the reservoir, and no pedal applications. Takes one man about I hour tops, including bleeding the master cylinder. Make sure the reservoir stays over half full at all times and remove the panel to bleed the master cylinder at the end of the job.
     
  4. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Full Name:
    Rob Schermerhorn
    Yes, ducting air into the center of the rotors will improve the heat capacity of your brakes by 90%.

    Air duct, good high performance pads, and fresh fluid (don't use DOT 5, silicone; not to be confused with synthetic) like my personal favorite for cost/performance Ford Heavy Duty made by Dow Corning with dry boil of 568 degF.

    I also bleed the 360 without SDII (it's an unnecessary PITA).

    Air ducts, pads and regular maintenance is much less expensive than a caliper and rotor upgrade.

    Best regards,

    Rob Schermerhorn
     
  5. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    Phil Hughes
    Should point out that challenge cars have slightly reduced turning lock available, due to the extra clearance needed in the wheel arches for the ducts. For parking your road car, this may prove tiresome.

    The lock is reduced simply by spacers in the rack.

    Also, suspension droop may need to be limited to allow the shock absorber to clear the hub ducting. This is harder to do, but can be done by putting spacers inside the shock.

    The expense of Challenge ducts, and then the mods req'd to make it work on a road car, probably mean it's more cost effective to get your own ducting fabricated by a race shop. May not be as effective as a Challenge set up, but without slicks, the need for cooling would be lessened anyway.
     
  6. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    I agree 100% with Rob here. Save your money & don't buy a hugely expensive brake upgrade system. Get some air to the brakes, get better pads, and get top-nothch fluid. Problem solved. I had the same issue in my 550, a MUCH heavier car, on track. While the 550 does have air ducts to the front, I was still getting serious fade & fluid boil. So I upgraded pads and fluid (Castrol SRF): problem solved. Now the car can brake like a mother all day long, no problem.
     
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  8. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,015
    I recommend using, for occasional track work, ATE superBlue/superGold. If you boil a fresh batch of this stuff, you need more air and bigger rotors.

    For Pads, I am currently using Ferrodo DS2500s. Streetable down here in Texas in the wintertime, but probably not a whole lot farther north.

    Finally, the biggest issue with the 360 is lack of air flowing towards the brakes. Duct some fresh air from a positive pressure point and your brake fade issues will go away.
     
  9. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,398
    MO
    If you decide to sell your calipers, please give me a headsup.
     
  10. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    how much experience do you have? are you a seasoned driver who's new to the 360 and has already found it's limits, or, if not, please describe what you implied by "bad technique"; i.e., what were you doing wrong?
    also, i agree with others here, get better pads, fluid and duct the front; however, if you're a new to the track, i wouldn't move to r compound tires (which the pirelli p zero corsas are) just yet. if you're beginning, better equipment will mask your errors, i'd stay on streets for a little while longer.

    ps: hi dave, good to see you back.
     
  11. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest


    Thanks, man. LOVE your sig picture...
     
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  13. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,015
    The time to move up to R-compound tires is when you are within 2 seconds (or so) of the lap record for cars of your class on street tires.

    It takes less time to learn to drive well on street tires and this learning comes with lower danger levels, and if something does happen, there is less energy in the car that might need disapating. Street tires let you learn about slip angles, the difference between slipping and sliding and screwing up. Their breakaway characteristics are more forgiving and are anounced much earlier than the stickier tires.

    For me, I have logged about 1,500 laps on street tires, and I routinely chase down F360 F1 on R-compound tires with a lowly F355B on streets.
     
  14. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
    London
    In terms of technique, I found on the track that I was still using 'road' technique of progressively increasing brake pressure rather than immediate strong pressure with a steady reduction in pressure. End result was that heat was building up in the discs/pads prior to maximum pressure.

    Having done numerous track events the correct breaking technique and correction in braking distances has turned out to be the most difficult (as predicted by my track tutor) to perfect.

    In terms of deceleration, the two variables are the materially-based friction coefficient and the footprint of interaction (i.e. pad area). I have driven 355's with improved pads such as Pagids but find their squeaking in road use to be annoying. Furthermore, the greater bite in pads is also reflected in greater wear of discs. To this end my preference has so far been to increase pad area via increased disc/pad/claiper sizes.

    In terms of fade, the cooling ducts are very interesting - I am off to research the vents used in 360 challenge cars.

    I will keep you all posted of progress - especially Auraraptor should I have a spare pair of calipers!!

    Regards

    Izza
     
  15. phil30

    phil30 Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2003
    785
    Somewhere I belong
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    Phil Tan
    Which are the dealers that can offer 360 Challenge Brakes?

    Can they fit the standard 18" modena wheels? Are the rotors bigger or the same size?
     
  16. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    Any dealer can offer the parts, but some time spent searching will probably return you some bits at well under Ferrari prices.

    If all else fails, have a fabricator make the necessary parts to fit it all. There will be a motorsport specialist somewhere in your area.

    You need Calipers, mounts, studs and fasteners etc. Then discs, mounting hats/bells with floating bobbins etc. The challenge cars use wheel studs and nuts in place of bolts, these studs have shoulders to locate the hats, but this is not necessary if you make your own parts retaing the standard wheel bolts.
     
  17. phil30

    phil30 Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2003
    785
    Somewhere I belong
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    Phil Tan
    Anyone has tried the Brembo Front Big brake kit (Grand Turismo) with 355mm rotor and calipers to match? As for the rear, the standard rotor can be replaced by Challenge type light weight rotors. These can fit the standard 18" rims.

    Are the Yellow Pagid pads compatible with this set up?
     
  18. dwe8922

    dwe8922 Formula Junior

    Feb 27, 2004
    366
    FL
    Full Name:
    David
    Anyone have a picture of the challenge brake ducting? Has anyone tried wire tying brake ducting under the A-arm, and then routing it up to the center of the rotor? Also, w/ stainless brake lines, what is the normal service life. I've always heard they had to changed out on a schedule since the rubber portion could not be inspected. Who are the current sources for SS brake lines?

    Thanks!
    David
     
  19. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    #16 chrismorse, Jun 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I know this is a BIT of overkill, particularly given the lack of HP, but i picked up the front discs, and calipers, (no brackets or hats) for $700 on ebay. Martin at Girodisc made it work and also sourced some good used 360 challenge calipers and 360 P brake calipers.

    Give them a try, they also stock replacement discs.

    regards,
    chris
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  20. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
    4,725
    Hong Kong
    Absolutley correct
     
  21. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
    4,725
    Hong Kong
    I had Brembo big brakes on my 550. 380's on the front and 355's on the rear and had to switch to 19" wheels for all of that to fit. Important to pay attention to the back brakes if you want to maintain proper bias. Also important to uprate the cooling vents
     
  22. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
    4,725
    Hong Kong
    Sound advice. Even on my Formula Renault I use harder slicks for practice for exactly the same reasons
     
  23. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
    4,725
    Hong Kong
    #20 DM18, Jun 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Definitely not my experience with the 550 standard brakes. I went for big brakes and that was the only way to solve the problems. The standard brakes are pathetic at speeds over 280kph. Dangerous. That is one thing that I don't miss about old cars like the 550. The brakes on the 599 are simply fantastic
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