360 Cam timing

I never heard of doing it with old belts .. interested to hear others chime in

 

No reason to time with old belts and then have to redo it with new belts.

 

Question probably is based on the idea of a belt is only supposed to be tensioned once.

 

I recently did a belt service on my 360 and before I took the old belts off, I checked the tension and one belt was right on the money but the other was a bit loose. Still in spec, but on the low end. The tensioner on that side had failed and was leaking oil. I think that's why it was a little off.

I don't believe the belts stretch over time, at least not significantly, or even enough to be reason to change them. If a belt can go four years and not change tension, then that's pretty good evidence. Of course, I only have a sample of two.

I think the reason the belts are changed is because they can break. The change out time period of three years also has something to do with the way the ECU is programmed. It's a bug that sends strong impulses into the cam belt system when the exhaust pipe valves open and close at high RPM's. I guess that sort of means that if you don't have a valved exhaust, you probably don't have the issue with the ECU bug. (@360trev has a fix for this if you do.)

 

I can't recall a single time when someone measured/set the cam timing with "new" belts and then remeasured the cam timing before removing them when they were "old" belts to see how much/if it has changed (on any belt model F) -- would be very interesting data. Then you are always left with the "problem" of knowing (if there is a small change) did the Designers compensate for that in the specifications for "new' belts? Of course, just setting the cam timing with new belts, then removing the test set-up, and reinstalling the test set-up and remeasuring the next day might be surprising .

 

Not the dumbest thing I have ever heard but close to it. Do you suppose the factory uses old belts when timing new engines?
Does that make sense to anyone?
When developing new engines the factory assembles them, dynos them and when satisfied tells us to do same.
They dont go through all these idiotic gymnastics some kid in a closet dreams up.

To get Ferrari outcomes, do it the way its outlined in the manual and do not let clueless people overthink things they know nothing about.

 

I'd be more interested to know exactly how many people go through cam timing every time they do belts...I'd be willing to bet not many...even most professionals.

 

Lock n swap! Turn it over.. no interference.. slap it on the butt and send it out.

 

2024 is gonna be a rough year... I can already feel it.

Ray

 

March 27th, 1979 - Three Mile Island intercom: "Joe, just double checking.. those rods for the nuclear reactor - in the water or out? I've heard different opinions on this"

Ray

 

I'm pretty sure this is how 99% of belt services are done.

 

Even though that's how it is probably done, that's not how it should be done.

Subtle small tolerance changes in things like belts, key ways, etc. can stack up and add together; before you know it, your cam timing is off 5 degrees or something.

I've never worked on a Ferrari motor at this level, but any time this type of work is done, you should re-time the motor using degree wheels and dial indicators, etc.

Ray

 

My biggest concern is who's been in there before and do i trust their work.

 

I agree, and having just reinstalled my cams, I'm working at this level right now...but I will say, not to open a can of worms, but using the 3 year belt change intervals will greatly reduce the chances of all that...in fact I didn't even have to compress my tensioners to lock them when I took everything apart so pretty sure my belts were true and everything lined up beautifully...of course then I pulled my cams and replaced the tensioners and tensioner bracket to accept the new style.

 

We time every single job we do. If we have drivability issues we often will check cam timing prior to disassembly to confirm the source.

 

Which is why most of the cars run like crap compared to one properly timed.

 

You have to because it is done badly so often.

 

I drove my friend's 360 a while back and it seemed unusually fast. He told me they had just timed the cams. I sold him, "Yeah, I don't remember my 360 being this fast"

Ray

 

Yeh .
I had a 360 F1 for 10 yrs .Bought it from a dealer and maintained its FFSH .Every 3 yrs belts at one of Europe’s largest F dealer .
The dealer was a good 2 hr rtn trip .Locally I had ( 3 miles ) a very good tech based on BMW M cars ( used to race prep as well ) but did other high end inc F cars , Lambos , Astons etc .So occasionally for small stuff and for convenience I would , or more like wife would drop it off at him .Due to business of us both and we trusted him we would opt for the home delivery.
So trust worthy I would give him the gate / garage fob and even if we were not in he would deliver it back , open the gate s , open the garage park it , trickle charger it and post keys and fob in a envelope through the door letterbox .
House has 8 outside CCTV internet cameras so we’re alerted and watch on phone etc etc .
That’s the back ground .

Cut to the chase = he always told me two things about my car using his vast experience driving clients Fcars they had in the shop .

1- it’s got the sweetest / smoothest F 1 box .
2- it’s feels very powerful .

Remember mine sees a franchised F dealer annually so has had various updates , software up dates on the clutch etc .It’s Belts done every 36 months …..presume by Ferrari standards ? I know this by speaking to the staff at the Ferrari centre.

 

What is "FFSH"? I'm having a "senior moment" with that one....!

 

Full Ferrari Service History.

 

Unless you talk to the guy who dialed in the cams or see his work sheet, no way to know.

I think, myself, I would be hard pressed to time a 360 motor while it's still in the car. I've never done it on a 360 motor - or any Ferrari motor for that matter - but based on seeing what the shop manual outlines for the 360 (and having done this job on other cars), it definitely makes me wonder if Ferrari dealers out there are re-timing things when replacing belts or not.

Ray

 

For me personally it goes case by case. Setting cam timing adds labor time. When a car comes in, BEFORE any work is performed I go through a complete inspection with a scan and a look at the parameters/data. If at that time I see things I do not like, I note it and inform the customer. At that point it is up to them if they want to spend the extra time and money to set the car correctly.

Unfortunately the usual answer is.."it drives perfect!! Why should I fix what isn't broken! Just change the belts."

I cannot spend time that doesn't belong to me. All is noted on the invoice all recommended work is shown as declined.

On the opposite end, you have customers that drop the car off with strict orders to "fix it call me when it's ready"