360 Challenge Fuel Bladder Replacement?

I have had the very same question about the service life of the bladders. European F40s had them and Ferrari reccomended replacement at ten years. The FIA would not allow cars to compete with bladders older than 7 years that were not either removed and recertified or replaced. I am also surprised that K&K has not picked up on this?

Replacement does not require engine removal. Remove inner fender panels and you should be able to access bladders. It would make the job easier if you fabricated a plate with an adapter for a shop vac connection. They will collapse on themselves under vacuum and make removal andinstallation easier.

 

You can run an out of date bladder with FCRA. HSR, the new sanctoning body for FCRA has the easiest set of tech rules I've ever seen. All they seem to check is that your seat belts have not expired. You can run muffler pipe as a roll cage and pass tech.

Can't remember what the NASA rule book says, but the NASA website has the rules posted on line. A 355C runs in ST2 with NASA, so a 360C would either ballast into that class or run ST1 (where it would be destroyed by higher hp cars).

 

Dave, we regularly used a shop vac to assist in replacing bladders. Trouble came when the boys had a crash to repair and forgot and hooked onto the old fuel vapour filled cell and blew up the vacuum! If you go this route, use an air vac folks!!

 

At the moment the HSR/FCRA will allow a fuel bladder that is older than 7 years, provided you have it inspected by an FCRA qualified shop. Out of date seats need a bar, belts need replacement. We are currently researching this issue. This is the rule for 2012, 2013 could have replacement requirements. Right now the conventional wisdom is that there are tests that can be done to determine integrity. Our research continues.

 

John, the rules you state here contradict the current set of rules published by the HSR and FCRA. For fuel cells the HSR published rule is replacement or recertification after 10 years. For seats, the published rule set does not have a requirement to run a back brace.

If the rules are changing I might suggest that something get out very quickly given that we are only one month away from Sebring. (and HSR's opening event is this weekend!)

 

The FCRA is not contradicting itself. The FCRA did not ever publish that we have a blanket waiver of expired safety systems.

Your car needs to pass a safety tech, which is stated on the FCRA site (again we will clarify what that means if there is confusion). Safety techs can be performed by any FCRA approved shop. If you have an originally designed safety system that is out of date, then do not assume that it is approved by the FCRA to ignore. If you are faced with several rules or standards, I would not ever assume that the least restrictive is the one that controls (thats general legal advice .

The board met early in 2011 and determined that the best course of action for tech inspectors was that if your fuel cell is passed its date, then it needs to be inspected. (I'd recommend you do this regardless of what our rules).

I assumed that anyone who had an expired safety system would be on notice that they needed to ask about safety inspections, but I agree with the addition of HSR I need to send a clarification notice to everyone about what you are to do if you have an out of date or expired safety system.

 

What I said is that you are contradicting the PUBLISHED tech rules. Since the sanctioning body is the HSR and the FCRA never published rules about fuel cells, the only guide we have is the HSR tech rules and it says 10 years. If you had a private meeting to change the rules to 7 years, you are clearly contradicting the only known set of rules your members can be expected to know and follow.

With regards to seats, manufacturers have not set any expiration dates on their seats. It is true that FIA homologated seats lose their certification after 5 years (unless recertified for 2 additional years by the manufacturer), but it is up to individual sanctioning bodies to determine if they want to require FIA approved seats or not. Likewise, the common approval of a back brace was a rule embraced by various sanctioning bodies, the FIA does not approve of this.

To date, the HSR has not mandated that a current FIA seat, or SFI seat, or any other particular certification be required. You can run any seat you want. So again, if you intend to enforce something different than the published rules please let people know. At Daytona last year, HSR tech came through and tech'ed our cars and failed my belts (their published rules state the expiration date) but approved my 12 year old seat (see attached). So they did a good job and followed the published rule set.

I never meant to say that the FCRA has waived expired items. I am saying that the FCRA/HSR is responsible for defining the rules on expiration as there is no universal rule on this stuff, and if you want people to pass those rules you need to tell them what they are ahead of time. When faced with multiple options, your customers won't choose the least restrictive they will simply pick the one that was published. Absent any other direction, I bet that would even hold up in a court of law.

BTW, I replaced my seat and it took 6 weeks to get a new OMP seat after I ordered it. Hopefully stocking levels in the US have improved, but someone starting that process now may find limited options before Sebring.
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Rob

You stated that the FCRA is contradicting its published rules.

I'm pretty tired of arguing with you in a public forum and I am going to stop here. The FCRA is a membership club of Ferrari Challenge owners. Last year we had 45, this year we have 93. Our protocols for communication is direct with each other and not in a public forum. Although Fchat has this section and you have used it a lot to comminucate your view of the rules, this is not the forum, nor has been only the website, of how we communicate with our members. Last year tech waiver for expired safety systems (such as the fuel cell) was discussed and sent directly to our membership. We did not decide the tech rules in a private meeting. We decided with all tech teams and information on waivers was disseminated to all of the teams. You are new, so I understand your confusion and we will clarify for the new people.

The FCRA published that the cars need to pass a safetky tech. That was what we published. There are several approved tech teams. A Ferrari challenge car has safety systems put in place by Ferrari that have expiration. If you have a safety system that has an expiration notice on it placed by the manufacturer, then it is wise to assume that you need to ask someone.

We will clarify, but If you are in possession of a car that has an expired system you should ask and not assume and publish on a public forum that you can go with the least restrictive guidance.

 

I am not arguing with you John, but I do disagree with you. There is a difference so please don't take this personally and get so angry.

I am not sure when your last communication was to your members, but I joined in November of last year and have not received a single communication about tech rules. In fact, the only information I ever get is on this forum so that is where I have chosen to communicate. If you have 48 new members since last year then there are a lot of people like me wondering what the rules are. This forum may very well help them, and therefore the series, since there has been no direct communication on this topic for quite some time.

And if may respecfully remind you, you still have not sent out any direct communication about the minimum weight for each class. Melissa's only email on the topic to the members (sent Jan 10, 2012) did not reflect the rules stated in this forum. And there are also no rules posted on the FCRA website for us to reference. How are we supposed to find out about all of the requirements we need to follow if not for this forum?

More questions exist. How about window nets? The HSR does not require them, does the FCRA? Do they require FIA or SFI certification? If so, what is the expiration date? Do they require a top mount release or is a bottom mount release approved?

Are Hans devices required? Are there expiration dates on the tethers we need to know about? Does the expiration date change if the tether is SFI rated versus FIA rated?

 

Rob,
You have to use a little common sense. You have raced in other series. It's standard practice to have updated belts, seat, window net, gloves, socks, helmet,shoes and suit. Your fuel cell needs to be inspected. I have raced with HSR. They have tech inspections, but it is really up to you to get your car up to the safety standards.

 

FWIW, I haven't even looked at HSR rules. The general rule for FCRA seems to be to run the cars in stock challenge form except as permitted by FCRA. Maybe easier for the 430s, as we are closer to stock. Now I could be surprised at Sebring if someone asks to see my HSR stickers and patch! I do have the FCRA patch.

 

I have used common sense and my car is now up to date and meets all NASA safety requirements as that is the level of safety I want for my car as a driver. Various sanctioning bodies have other standards. HSR was more than happy to approve my old seat, bottom releasing expired net, and lack of roll bar padding per their rule set. Apparently their definition of common sense is different from mine.

Yes, it is up to us to get our cars to meet the 'standards', all I am asking is 'what is the standard?' We have been told that HSR is our sanctioning body and their standards are very different than other organizations. Is it so wrong to ask for clarity as opposed to just asking drivers to use common sense? What about the many drivers who have no experience, how do they learn what to do?

Will, back braces were never run as stock in the 355C series and Hans devices were not popular yet. Safety rules have changed a lot since 1999 as we have gotten smarter about these things. Relying on 'stock configuration' is not enough to understand the rules that John wants us to run under. Again, all I am asking for it that something be published somewhere so we can adhere to John's wishes.

Does anyone really think that publishing the tech rules and clarifying the role of the HSR rules versus the FCRA rules would be a bad thing?

 

The seat back brace question is interesting, as I remember when they started showing up,in PCA Club Racing. I remember discussions of how they should be designed, and recall buying my first Brey Krause back brace. Seems to me they weren't required for certain types of seats in the old days? Anyway, just a bit of nostalgia, no useful comment.

Rob, I think John has a lot on his plate, maybe too much when you think about all the hands to be held and deals to be cut with tracks, sponsors, vendors, etc. Ideally FCRA should have detailed rules, but John's also said many times that FCRA is a gentleman's series, which I think allows for a certain amount of informality among friends. I don't think your questions are unreasonable, but I also think common sense will get you through tech. I hope!

Now, if 430s get to race at Sebring without penalty on aftermarket shocks, my extremely thin veneer of gentlemanliness might disappear and a shrieking whiner of a club guy emerge.

If it makes you feel any better, I have been the victim of an unfair, private ruling by Mr. Houghtaling. He has assigned me a particularly vicious weight penalty, even sending me a photo of what I need to install in my car. I can't risk a DQ by sharing the photo, so let me just say that she is large and will not fit in any race seat I have seen. We are busy fabricating.

 

LOL! Clearly some forms of ballast are more detrimental to performance than others.

I am not worried at all about my car passing tech. As mentioned, I have followed the rule book of another organization to ensure I am well above the rules of the HSR/FCRA. I spent more on safety updates than I did on shocks.

My concern is about the other potentially uninformed 47 people who are new. Let's help those folks now, not when they arrive at the track with a problem. I would hate for someone to show up and not be able to run.

BTW, I won't use a back brace with a fixed shell seat that was not specifically designed for one. It's a controversial topic and I would rather buy a new seat rather than install a device that has not been approved by the FIA or the seat manufacturer. Maybe it's OK to use, I just haven't read enough evidence to feel completely safe with this option.

Another safety question is the use of inside nets in cars without halo seats? Not required in HSR but it is in PCA and NASA. Not sure about SCCA. What is the rule for us?

 

Rob

You seem to have a great difficulty with something that everyone else seems to get. This is a series based upon spec racing cars built from the factory ready to race. There are NO modifications allowed unless there is a waiver or exception issued. The rules are clear on this. This is the SAME for the safety systems.

Do not assume anything different. If you have a question or wish to ask for a waiver, you can ask.

While you may believe this forum is the best way to communicate with the FCRA management, it is not. It requires me to troll these sites responding to your posts. If you have not gotten it yet, I don't enjoy this.

If you have a question or you are confused about the rules then you can email us. We are not a public club and I reserve the right to communicate the way I see best.

A huge amount of information flows to the members very often. A lot is being negotiated and you are getting information as we get it.

If you'd like to put all that expertise you have to good use, please email Melissa and ask how you can pitch in.

 

There is no series on the planet you can run a 13 year old carbon fiber seat. It's common safety sense. Get a new seat. I think your life is worth the price of a new seat. Call HSR, they will let you know the specifications you desire. I am just trying to help you.

 

Greg, as stated previously I do have a new seat in the car now. And you are wrong about HSR. They most certainly inspected my seat and allowed me to run at Daytona. They failed my belts, which I replaced on site, and then issued the tech sticker upon seeing the fix. They were fully aware of the seat, old and poorly designed window net, etc.

I questioned the logic of this myself until I read their rule book which is published on their website. There is no requirement on the seat. It is also interesting that they have no requirements for roll cages either, other than the roll hoop must be over your head. Anything beyond that is only 'recommended'.

Here are the HSR tech requirements if you care to read about them:

http://hsrrace.com/HSR/HSRHome.nsf/attachmentweb/EJEN-637HSK/$file/Rules+&+Regulations.pdf?OpenElement

Real world experience says HSR follows their published rule book to the letter. Belts have an expiration date that they will enforce. Seats do not. That is precisely why I am raising this issue! Someone reading the FCRA website will see HSR as our sanctioning body and potentially follow their rule book given that no other communication from FCRA has come out on the topic. I'm just trying to help them.

 

Rob,
Ok got it. I am a common sense guy. I have had a couple of close calls (fires, crashes etc) and learned my lesson real quick. I tend to spend the money on safety equipment and less on go fast stuff. My rule is get the best safety equip money can buy because your life is priceless. My experience with HSR was they require all updated seats, belts, window nets, hans, helmet, full face helmet, socks, and fire extinguisher. Sometimes the rules change at the track tech.
Good luck see you at Sebring.

 

I have a brand new ATL front mount fuel bladder for the 355....it has never had fuel in it and has been in a controlled enviroment for the past 10 years.

Talked with ATL to do a twin pump internal mount and they had no problem doing the mod...HOWEVER they would not recertify the bladder.


As I'm interested in doing a few races how would a sanctioning body view this bladder?

 

Wow! I'm late to this party and Rob might be a little excessive but his general premise is sound and yours is not. Safety systems should always be upgradable and those upgrades should be encouraged. Much has been learned since the 355 challenge days. To not upgrade and not encourage safety upgrades is just plain wrong and there could even be some legal implications of preventing those if something bad happens and there was an easy simple known way to mitigate them.

 

A sanctioning body should reject your bladder and so should you. Rubber products have volitile componants and they go bad on the shelf. That does not mean your bladder is done just there is no testing beyond the 5 year life. It's like NOS race tires they are just not as fast.

 

I'm not syaing that you are not spot on, but I was with the understanding that the rubber compound used on ATL's fuel bladders was considerably different than the compound used for tires, and rhat the major contributing factor in fuel bladder degredation was due to the chemicals found in gasoline..

Never the less, if there is no testing beyond 5yrs then my statements are valueless.